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The Climate Change / Global Warming Debate


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#1 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 07:06 AM

So I woke up this morning to a CFAX commercial from the Freinds oF Science.

Debunking the "science" of global warming is their goal. At the end it directs you to their website.

http://www.friendsof...ndex.php?id=142

I had to dig a bit to get to that page, they may as well make it more accessable, because I suppose, like me, one of the first things I wanted to do was get to the bottom of who is behind the site. Tim Ball is there, as I suspected, only because the ad is on local radio.

I tend to lean Mr. Ball's way on the topic.

BUT, I also see no problem with government incentives/regulation to decrease our use of fossil fuels, indeed why not stimulate conservation and innovation in that area?

So I believe in fairly high fuel taxes (perhaps less for commercial transport), and I honestly think we could do ourselves a huge favour by doubling the energy-efficiency requirements of new homes. I'm even for a tax on new construction of SFD dwellings, of a set amount per sq. ft. over a certain amount, make peole think twice about extra size when building, BUT THEY STILL HAVE THE OPTION to build how they like if they pay a little extra.

I believe we shuld be taxed on our sewage use based on our water use, that only makes sense. If I flush my toilet twice a day and shower once, why should I pay the same amount as the family that uses three times the water? We already meter the water going in, just use that to determine our sewage rate.

#2 davek

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:37 AM

I tend to lean Mr. Ball's way on the topic.


There is more of Mr. Ball's work here.

BUT, I also see no problem with government incentives/regulation to decrease our use of fossil fuels, indeed why not stimulate conservation and innovation in that area?


Because problems arise from politicians manipulating incentives/regulation in order to maintain or increase their own power. This results in prices that are always either higher or lower than supply and demand would dictate, and in more extreme cases, shortages and rationing.

The profit opportunity in the market provides all the incentive that is necessary to promote conservation and innovation. The only thing government manages to do is distort the process by trying to pick winners and losers, misallocating resources for political advantage. This is why you are unfairly charged for sewage rates.

#3 G-Man

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:43 AM

No need to point out Mr. Ball the guy is like a bad rash.

#4 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:09 AM

There is more of Mr. Ball's work here.

Because problems arise from politicians manipulating incentives/regulation in order to maintain or increase their own power. This results in prices that are always either higher or lower than supply and demand would dictate, and in more extreme cases, shortages and rationing.

The profit opportunity in the market provides all the incentive that is necessary to promote conservation and innovation. The only thing government manages to do is distort the process by trying to pick winners and losers, misallocating resources for political advantage. This is why you are unfairly charged for sewage rates.


I agree with a lot of what you say. But you probably agree that some form of building regulations are needed, right? We don't want people building homes on wood foundations.

But let's expand on that. We let people build homes with roofs that will only last 20-30 years, but we expect their founadations to be built with concrete to last much more than 100+ years. We could require roofs that last 50-75 years, there are of course roofs in Europe that are over 300 years old.

I see no reason we should not require r-40 walls and r-100 ceilings, r-8 windows.

#5 Holden West

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:28 AM

This page shows the actual effects of climate change on various regions of America. People on both sides of the issue can agree that when all the changes are tallied the net result is sobering.
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#6 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:36 AM

This page shows the actual effects of climate change on various regions of America. People on both sides of the issue can agree that when all the changes are tallied the net result is sobering.


Yes, we are warming a bit.

But can't we adapt? There are winners and losers in climate change. Hotter weather means less energy used in the north, more in the south. Better (some types of) crops in the north, more drought in the south.

We can deal with it.

To me, better to deal with it as it happens, than waste money now thinking we can halt warming, if we find out we can't, that it's not caused by humans.

#7 Holden West

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:40 AM

^Maybe, but I think it will take a lot of B.C. calimari farms to compensate for more pine beetle attacks.
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#8 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:46 AM

^Maybe, but I think it will take a lot of B.C. calimari farms to compensate for more pine beetle attacks.


Cut up those squid, feed them to the fish farms' fish, and keep the chain going! I didn't say it didn't require some human help... those squid can't be expected to find the farms themsleves before they perish...they only speak Spanish but still have never heard of Juan de Fuca

#9 LJ

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:57 PM

We don't want people building homes on wood foundations.

.


Why not?

Lots of people have, and are, building them.

http://www.canply.org/pdf/main/pwf.pdf
Life's a journey......so roll down the window and enjoy the breeze.

#10 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 11:26 AM

Have you all been following the story of the nasty emails at the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit?

It has gotten worse: TigerHawk weighs in with No science is possible: CRU has destroyed the original data.

The blog post ends with:

In a few days this has gone from being a kerfuffle over a few snotty emails and some academic source code to a full-blown political and policy catastrophe. Any government that supports greenhouse gas regulation based on the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which relied heavily on the CRU data, would be derelict in its own obligation to do due diligence. Climate "skeptics" have been saying this for some time and dismissed as cranks for it. Months ago conservative bloggers were writing that these data had been destroyed (based on an admission on the CRU's own web site), but the mainstream media sat on the story as if it were irrelevant. Now, with the excuse of the CRU hack, even the Times of London is writing about it breathlessly.

Better late than never, but it still leaves this scary question: What if these wholly discredited "scientists" who threw away their raw data and are asking us to change the world on their say-so are actually right?


Holy eff.
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#11 Sparky

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:53 PM

I am presently installing a "closed loop" "water to water" ground source heat pump. There is a "slinky coil" grid of 4 loops buried 10 feet below ground and the loop connects to a heap pump located in the mechanical room. The slab of the house contains radiant coils.

The result is clean heat at $500 per year and can run on a generator during power failures, quiet as well..

We can pull ourselves off of the "oil nipple"

Message me if you would like me to email some pics I can't figure out how to post them here.

#12 phx

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:57 PM

How much were you paying for heating before?

#13 Sparky

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:01 PM

This a new house, smaller than the house I am in now with an oil furnace. The oil is about $1,000 per fill and I would use 4 fills in a winter if I did not burn wood in the airtight. So that could equate to a $3,500 a year savings.

#14 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:21 PM

I just watched the Global Warming Swindle.

Pretty compelling, but I think they could have made a better film.

#15 aastra

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:32 PM

No time to worry about climategate. Tiger Woods has marital troubles, don't ya know.

#16 Sparky

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:33 PM

It's British

#17 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:12 PM

I am presently installing a "closed loop" "water to water" ground source heat pump. There is a "slinky coil" grid of 4 loops buried 10 feet below ground and the loop connects to a heap pump located in the mechanical room. The slab of the house contains radiant coils.

The result is clean heat at $500 per year and can run on a generator during power failures, quiet as well..

We can pull ourselves off of the "oil nipple"

Message me if you would like me to email some pics I can't figure out how to post them here.


Sounds fantastic! I'm not clear about your reference to the "slab of the house contains radiant coils": does your house not have a basement then?

I'd be interested in knowing what's entailed in retrofitting an older house with a system like this. I know some people in a 1960s bungalow (who completely redid their house down to the studs and back again in the early 90s) who installed a heat pump system somewhat like yours. Their reno was massive & extensive. But can it be done without that kind of massive down-to-the-studs reno in a 1930s-era 2-story-plus-basement-and-attic house with forced-hot-water-radiator-heat?
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#18 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:14 PM

No time to worry about climategate. Tiger Woods has marital troubles, don't ya know.

No kidding. :rolleyes:
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#19 jklymak

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 07:25 AM

Have you all been following the story of the nasty emails at the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit?


Yes, there is a thorough discussion on http://realclimate.org. I've not been following it very closely, however, if over 10 years those are all the "nasty" emails that could be found, one would be hard pressed to come away thinking that there is a conspiracy to perpetrate a climate change fraud.

I'm not familiar with the claims of data being lost, but I can assure you that there are plenty of publicly available raw data sets that show the warming over the past 100 years. It is my understanding that they aren't as complete as CRU's because they do not rely on proprietary raw data, but they tell the same story.

Tiger Woods has marital troubles, don't ya know.


I did not know... I'll let the blogosphere know right away.

#20 Sparky

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 07:42 AM

Ms B Havin, this is a "slab on grade" house with no crawlspace or basement. Rigid insulation goes down first, then miles of tubing gets attached to the insulation, then the slab is poured. We are going to finish the concrete floor with "acid etch" so it will look like a hotel lobby. The thermostats will be set at 70 degrees F (give or take a couple of degrees) in September and it will stay that way until April. All of the heat comes out of the ground.

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