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[Johnson Street Bridge REPLACEMENT] General, technical, design and naming discussion


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#4181 Bingo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 12:05 AM

The decision to leave old bridge abutments in place will mean vessels have to travel farther and could also create risk, he said.

“This doubling of the transit distance in combination with the speed limits proposed undermines safety, rather than enhances it,” Hilder said.

Seaspan Marine operates a fleet of barges and provides such services as escorting ships. Its Victoria offices are on Dallas Road.

If no changes are made, the company “will have to curtail barge service to businesses above the bridge and cease performing bridge assists to other operators,” Hilder said.

- See more at: http://www.timescolo...h.qQL7wOT3.dpuf

 

 

 

 

The fendering has me bit puzzled.

If they are installing the rubber sleeves over the steel uprights, does that mean the fender is complete?

If so, this does not seem like a strong arrangement as each vertical fender is not strengthened by the one next to it.

And the space between the uprights is an opening for a barge or ship to hit without necessarily glancing off.

The arrangement on the existing bridge has horizontal planks that would keep vessels sliding along without a place to get caught.

I dunno there must be more to come...right.

 

Fendering.jpg



#4182 Bingo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 12:42 AM

Why we need protection...

 

I believe this barge is similar in size to the "design vessel" that is used to determine the appropriate crash protection implementation.  

It's pretty clear from these pics that the north side is going to need a substantial crash dolphin design - hence the repeated statements about its high cost.  

Also, the west side fenders would do nothing to stop this barge, with its high V-shaped bow, from taking out some support piles on the west approach.

 Probably even more precarious is the north side of the Bascule Pier.  Without protection, a direct hit on the northern wall could potentially do irreparable damage to the pier.  

Given that the north side of the pier is currently unprotected, a crash now would render all the worries about Chinese steel kinda moot.

 

25977482733_89e20f06a7_h.jpg

 

26307409390_5c7196096a_h.jpg



#4183 Bingo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 12:46 AM

We should all be questioning why fendering was left off the original budget, it makes no sense.  It's not a new concept, but it sure is one they are finding a way to spend an extra $5M on. 

 

Fendering isn't very pretty to look at if it is to be functional, so perhaps they thought they didn't need it because no body would think of ramming into the bridge, eh! What they have so far isn't very functional.



#4184 Bingo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:01 AM

Wasn't the fendering one of the items of contention?
Can you imagine, while the mayor is off in China inspecting steel welds a barge slams into the totally exposed and unprotected new bridge approach?

 

In any case, Huggett explained why fendering was so vital:

The new bridge is somewhat less robust than the existing structure,” he told councillors (emphasis added).

“The last thing I need is a barge to hit the rest pier and knock it two inches out of alignment.

For one, I don’t know how I’d get it back again having knocked it out of alignment and then I’m faced with an inoperable bridge.

You’ve got a $100 million invested in the water here and I’ve got to protect it.”

http://focusonline.ca/node/915



#4185 spanky123

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:06 AM

Well I guess we get to see how important reconciliation is to Helps after all. Seaspan's comment about not servicing businesses above the bridge will have an impact, I am guessing, on the newly minted plan to lease the transferred BC Hydro land from FN as a sewage plant staging area.  So what will be more important, the lease, or having taxpayers cough up millions of dollars more to keep Seaspan happy?



#4186 Bingo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:39 AM

A staging area at Rock Bay will mean even more barge traffic.

 

Here is Gary's photo again showing an unloaded barge heading south under the bridge.

There is a tug at each end, but no room for one on each side as they pass through the narrow channel.

If the barge were loaded with crushed cars we know how high that would be the full width of the barge.

In this photo you can see the overhanging walkway on the north side of the bridge.

The red arrows east and west of the channel point out the vulnerable parts of the design at this stage of construction.

 

Barge under JSB..jpg



#4187 spanky123

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:44 AM

Problem solved.

 

Chris Coleman was on CFAX this morning. Apparently money for fenders is NOT considered part of the bridge budget so no problems there with an increase to the $105M. Secondly, he stated words to the effect that they (council) sent Huggett to Seattle for simulations on the bridge and if there are any problems then it is his fault as the Mayor and council are not experts!

 

Huggett is on at 9:05 this morning.


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#4188 Mike K.

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:52 AM

Oh, well problem solved. Now we're just creating new budgets for the bridge. The money just materializes out of thin air.

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#4189 Bingo

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:54 AM

Problem solved.

 

Chris Coleman was on CFAX this morning. Apparently money for fenders is NOT considered part of the bridge budget so no problems there with an increase to the $105M. Secondly, he stated words to the effect that they (council) sent Huggett to Seattle for simulations on the bridge and if there are any problems then it is his fault as the Mayor and council are not experts!

 

Huggett is on at 9:05 this morning.

 

Problem solved...not really. 

 

Meanwhile the north side of the bridge is STILL unprotected, but it sounds like they will look at solutions in the SPRING.

 

More in today's TC

 

“We have conducted vessel-movement simulations at the Pacific Maritime Institute with key stakeholders, including Seaspan,” Huggett said in a statement.

“The city is working with its technical experts to ensure the bridge has an appropriate fendering system and operating procedures, which includes type and configuration of tug boats, speeds and other requirements.

“These will be presented to council for approval in the spring. We will continue to work with all parties to ensure the bridge is safe.”

- See more at: http://www.timescolo...h.w1FwjsrA.dpuf



#4190 jonny

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:17 PM

Wait...so there's not even temporary protection??? That sounds really dumb.



#4191 HB

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:36 PM

Filmed this in 2011. Not much room for mistakes or rules where the Captains need to worry about looking at their speed

 

http://youtu.be/RWNQWNVrMJU


Edited by HB, 26 January 2017 - 01:37 PM.


#4192 Mike K.

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:40 PM

A fellow called in to CFAX during their segment on the fenders and said that he was a barge operator for many years. He said they'd sometimes need to travel above the 5 knot limit in order to pass under the bridge safely, especially when conditions were just right. He also said it was tougher to enter the upper harbour than to leave.


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#4193 North Shore

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:52 PM

Man, things just get better every day for the JSB project.  I wonder what the whole thing will eventually cost, right down to the toilet paper...


Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?

#4194 Mike K.

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 03:24 PM

$130-million once the dust settles. Guaranteed.

 

Meanwhile the Johnson Street Bridge was to have imploded by now, we were once-upon-a-time told.


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#4195 spanky123

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 03:48 PM

A fellow called in to CFAX during their segment on the fenders and said that he was a barge operator for many years. He said they'd sometimes need to travel above the 5 knot limit in order to pass under the bridge safely, especially when conditions were just right. He also said it was tougher to enter the upper harbour than to leave.

 

Heard the guy, he joked about not caring what the limit said. I hear him but in the event of an accident I don't think that the insurer or harbor authority would share his cavalier sense.



#4196 todd

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 04:44 PM

However international Collision Regulations says:

 

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.”  http://laws-lois.jus...416/page-3.html

 

Which should trump:

 

“All ships manoeuvring in waters of the Port of Victoria north of a straight line between the westerly end of the Ogden Point breakwater and Macaulay Point to a straight line drawn between Shoal Point and Berens Island shall proceed at a safe speed at all times and shall not exceed 7 knots. All ships manoeuvring in waters of the Port of Victoria north and east of a straight line drawn between Shoal Point and Berens Island and south of the Selkirk Trestle Bridge shall proceed at a safe speed at all times and shall not exceed 5 knots.” https://www.tc.gc.ca...arine-1521.html

 

 

Slower is not necessarily safer in a boat storms and tides are the factors, the has captain the responsibility to maneuver his vessel safely. If they didn't speed up when they should have then you would have an issue.

 

 

I have requested higher speed in the Victoria harbor in the past was not a problem.


Edited by todd, 26 January 2017 - 04:56 PM.

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#4197 JanionGuy

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 05:53 PM

So, are there going to be speed cops down there with a speed gun?  Can speed guns even tell the difference between 3.5 and 4.5 knots?



#4198 spanky123

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:11 PM

So, are there going to be speed cops down there with a speed gun?  Can speed guns even tell the difference between 3.5 and 4.5 knots?

 

Well I think that if we install 3.5 knot fenders and someone hits them at 5 knots and screws up the bridge then the speed gun won't be necessary.



#4199 todd

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 07:13 PM

So, are there going to be speed cops down there with a speed gun?  Can speed guns even tell the difference between 3.5 and 4.5 knots?

It's monitored I know at least one person who got a ticket I think from transport canada.(not sure exactly how it happened was in the harbor commercial vessel)


Edited by todd, 26 January 2017 - 07:19 PM.


#4200 spanky123

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 08:15 PM

It's monitored I know at least one person who got a ticket I think from transport canada.(not sure exactly how it happened was in the harbor commercial vessel)

 

I am sure that the harbor master has radar that tracks and logs the speed of every vessel automatically.


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