94 replies to this topic

[rjag]

^I second that as well. Farming first, bicycles a distant second.

Wow John Luton's gonna give you guys an earful now!!!!:rolleyes:

This is the same as the people that live in the harbour and want to shut down the planes and the marina.....no wonder nothing ever gets accomplished on a grand scale in this region, the constant bickering that goes on whether its float planes, sewage or freakin bikes. This isnt debate or due process, its the fault of the politico's that bend over backwards for special interest groups everywhere that nothing can be accomplished on a regional scale.

One more reason for amalgamation.....oh and is it any wonder that we have record low voter turn outs for municipal elections when the bench strength is so pitiful in all 14 municipalities.

[Schnook]

...They are worried about the tranquility of the valley. BS. They are worried about the potential for compost stink. Which again, is irrational: it was a dairy farm up until a couple of years ago. Cows trump compost in the stink department.

That whole valley is a seasonal swamp of rainwater and decomposing vegetation for six months of the year anyway. Take a look at it now. The water is 3 feet deep in some areas.

[Coreyburger]

What revenue does the Lochside Trail bring the farmer? Zilch. The fact is that Lochside Trail goes through private property (there are signs on the trail stating as much); and the only way the CRD was able to finish the Trail was through the benevolence of farmowners and with the caveat - insisted upon by the Agricultural Land Commission - that first and foremost, Lochside Drive and Trail are for farming purposes. If there is a conflict between farming activities and trail users, the farmers MUST be accommodated, first. Those are the rules of the game and the risk that the CRD took when building the Trail along that route. The initial staff reports back in the 2000s identified that particular stretch of trail as problematic and likely a source of future conflict. I know that the farmer absolutely does not want to shut the trail access. But if Tanner is a problem, and Old East is a problem, how the funk is the farmer supposed to get trucks to his land? Airlift? C'mon, the guys's gotta eat.

I wasn't arguing that Lochside brings in money to the farmer. I was arguing that Lochside brings in more revenue to the general community than a compost operation does. That is the decision that council needs to make: what is the greater good?

And again, the issue is not the farms. The issue is a large-scale composting facility, which is not a farm.

[Bob Fugger]

I wasn't arguing that Lochside brings in money to the farmer. I was arguing that Lochside brings in more revenue to the general community than a compost operation does. That is the decision that council needs to make: what is the greater good?

And again, the issue is not the farms. The issue is a large-scale composting facility, which is not a farm.

I'm not sure that I see the economic spinoff that you do. Between Mattick's Farm and Sidney, there are no retail/service opportunities. I don't see how revenue is generated.

As for large scale composting, the facility is designed to produce up to 20,000 tonnes of compost per year, which is just enough to spread over the 400 or so acres that they farm. The alternative is chemical-based fertilizer and pesticides - talk about greater good!

[G-Man]

I am fairly certain there is no debate. Farming wins based on the law.

[Sparky]

This topic reminds me of the Fatt's Poultry processing facility at Royal Oak, where the population built around an operation that was in business when neighbors did not exist.

Slowly the houses were built, the neighborhood committees were formed, complaints about smell and noise were lodged, and discussions took place. Ian Fatt maintained that he was there first and the neighbors did not have a right to complain about anything.

The question is what property rights does someone have who builds and lives nearby to a facility that may now perhaps not meet community standards.

In the end the chicken processing plant was closed. Why? In my mind it was about the fact that they did not own all of the land around it that was affected by their operations. In other words their smell and noise was not contained within their property lines which clearly affected others with property rights, and the "I was here first" mind set did not meet the test of law.

Farming however, is protected from that same logic and there are bylaws on the books that exclude farming operations from noise bylaws as an example.

Did you know that the military's rifle range used to be located at Clover Point? Do you think that would be an acceptable location today? Times change, society changes, the rules change.

If the "I was here first" defense was valid, the public meeting would have been held in a wigwam.

[gumgum]

It's more complex than, "I was there first." We're talking about the ALR.

I don't think anyone thinks the ALR should be rezoned into something else. That would be a big mistake. The ALR is a vital component to our community. And if anyone chooses to live within or near its border is subject to everyday workings of a farming area.

[Nparker]

If the "I was here first" defense was valid, the public meeting would have been held in a wigwam*.

You do realize the pre-European people's of the Saanich Peninsula, never lived in such structures....

wigwam
1628, from Algonquian (probably Eastern Abenaki) wikewam
"a dwelling," said to mean lit. "their house;" also said to be
found in such formations as wikiwam and Ojibwa wiigiwaam
and Delaware wiquoam .

[VicHockeyFan]

The ALR is a vital component to our community.

Really? I don't think it is. I like farming as much as the next guy, but I don't see why we deem some land as farm-land-only, and some as farm-or-other-use.

What I mean is, why do we protect farming in urban areas? I see no reasonable rationale. If it is open greenspace people crave, then we could have parks. But I don't like such severe regulation of private property.

[Logic]

Interesting comments. This is what it boils down to for me; I don't actually care about whether Stanhope is composting, selling, running equipment at odd times, smell versus non-smell, braking ARL rules or not. For me it is about the trucks, some of the drivers are being ignorant and rude to other users of the street (including other farmers), newsflash, this is a public road, not your own personal highway, I have as much right to be on this road as you do. Denying it would be futile and examples could be brought forward. I live in Saanich, so my biggest comment is why is a Central Saanich issue my issue. Stop using, the now illegal for you to use motorways, Saanich has clearly changed the load carrying weight on this road since the road is actually being damaged, maybe somebody should get out of their trucks and have a walk down the street. You are located in Central Saanich and have pointed out that there are 2 different routes that can be used, not including a third option of building your own access. I would even go as far as wishing you the best of luck. Stop breaking the law and I can assure you that residents here will be a lot more tolerant.

[gumgum]

Really? I don't think it is. I like farming as much as the next guy, but I don't see why we deem some land as farm-land-only, and some as farm-or-other-use.

What I mean is, why do we protect farming in urban areas? I see no reasonable rationale. If it is open greenspace people crave, then we could have parks. But I don't like such severe regulation of private property.

Regardless of your or my opinion of the ALR, it is protected. What value you or I deem it is another matter altogether.

[SamCB]

Interesting comments. This is what it boils down to for me; I don't actually care about whether Stanhope is composting, selling, running equipment at odd times, smell versus non-smell, braking ARL rules or not. For me it is about the trucks, some of the drivers are being ignorant and rude to other users of the street (including other farmers), newsflash, this is a public road, not your own personal highway, I have as much right to be on this road as you do. Denying it would be futile and examples could be brought forward. I live in Saanich, so my biggest comment is why is a Central Saanich issue my issue. Stop using, the now illegal for you to use motorways, Saanich has clearly changed the load carrying weight on this road since the road is actually being damaged, maybe somebody should get out of their trucks and have a walk down the street. You are located in Central Saanich and have pointed out that there are 2 different routes that can be used, not including a third option of building your own access. I would even go as far as wishing you the best of luck. Stop breaking the law and I can assure you that residents here will be a lot more tolerant.

If this is truly the issue, then petition Saanich Police to enforce load restrictions on their roads. Saanich is a small municipality- if enough people complain they will probably do it.

[Logic]

Well, that is truly the issue with many residents of this road, I can not speak for all of them. And just for your information, the truckers have received fines from the police and straight out don't care, the police can not monitor 1 road 10-11 hours a day and expecting this would be unreasonable. The trucks should be conforming to the law, unless your philosophy is that everything is legal until you get caught? This operation made it sound like in the TC that they respect their neighbours, well, this I can not agree with in any way or form, sending these trucks thru Old East Road with new weight restriction proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Bob Fugger]

If you have an issue with the trucks, take it up with the DRIVERS, not the farmer. It is false to assume that all of the trucks entering/exiting the site are owned by the farm. In fact, most of those trucks are trucking in fill from the excavation at Uptown, for the compost facility tipping floor - and they are driven by Teamsters.

For those few trucks that are owned by the farmer, if I was him I would slap farm plates on them, which would exempt them from weight restrictions on Saanich or Central Saanich roads. As for the third potential route, why don't you call Municipal Hall and ask them why they haven't pushed all that hard for this option. The answer might surprise you.

[Logic]

Bob Fugger, you do know what assume means, correct? I am talking about the drivers/trucks, maybe you are commenting on someone else's post in which case, sorry, otherwise re-read everything that I have posted, maybe you missed the TRUCK part, did I ever say the trucks where all owned by the farm, NO. But let me assure you 100% that at least one of the trucks in question is owned by the farm. Now to the reality of it; would most (if not all) dump trucks be on this road if it weren't for the farm, NO. Are they damaging the road, YES. Are they (ALL for further clarifications) not allowed on this road, YES. Do the owner(s) of the farm care, NO. Are they gonna change anything about it, DON'T KNOW. Plain and simple.

[Bob Fugger]

Bob Fugger, you do know what assume means, correct? I am talking about the drivers/trucks, maybe you are commenting on someone else's post in which case, sorry, otherwise re-read everything that I have posted, maybe you missed the TRUCK part, did I ever say the trucks where all owned by the farm, NO. But let me assure you 100% that at least one of the trucks in question is owned by the farm. Now to the reality of it; would most (if not all) dump trucks be on this road if it weren't for the farm, NO. Are they damaging the road, YES. Are they (ALL for further clarifications) not allowed on this road, YES. Do the owner(s) of the farm care, NO. Are they gonna change anything about it, DON'T KNOW. Plain and simple.

If you were building a patio and had a cement truck comes to your home and it damaged the road, would it make sense to blame you as the customer? Nope. As for the farmer caring, have you contacted him and allowed him the opportunity to address your concerns? Dare I make yet another assumption (NB: I did check the dictionary as to the Oxford meaning of the word, just for you - and yeah, I'm good), but I have a feeling what the answer to that question is.

[Logic]

Bob Fugger, I would guess that you are part of the operation or at least very close to it and you are entitled to whatever opinion you may choose. As for the cement truck, well, the farm had some of those come in as well (not owned by them - just in case clarification was needed). We are not discussing 1 truck every few weeks per every resident of this street. I do applause your ingenuity in attempting to downplay the issue. Please answer this as truthfully as you can; are there currently - no truck over 5,500 kgs signs posted on Old East Road? (lets go with the Saanich side and both sides of Old East Road, since that is my concern). Are there trucks currently using that part of the road to deliver goods into a different municipality that have no right to be on that road? Have police been attempting to enforce the new weight restriction? If I contact the owner(s) today they will say; absolutely, your concern override money invested and money to be made no more trucks on Old East Road on the Saanich side? Is there another route that these trucks could use? Will they use it?

Tell you what, lets see what happens next week, actions speak louder than words. I hope that the owner(s) prove me wrong.

[Bob Fugger]

If I contact the owner(s) today they will say; absolutely, your concern override money invested and money to be made no more trucks on Old East Road on the Saanich side? Is there another route that these trucks could use? Will they use it?

Tell you what, lets see what happens next week, actions speak louder than words. I hope that the owner(s) prove me wrong.

Logic, I apologize: had I realized that you possessed the gifts of clairvoyance and omniscience, I would not have deigned to question you - as you already seem to know what the farmer would have told you, had you bothered to contact him. My fault, entirely.

[Logic]

Bob Fugger, guess you missed the question in there, all questions ended with a "?" making it a question does it not? What I did notice is the lack of answers at least to some of the questions, some that you have shown knowledge towards.

Here is the reality again; is there anything that we can do, no. Will I be contacting Municipal Hall on Monday and find an answer to your comment - absolutely/hopefully (about the third option). Will the road be repaired or even better improved to accommodate everybody - honestly don't know only time will tell. Is this issue just going to disappear, no. Is it stressful for everybody, yes. Are you and I going to find a solution - doubt it. Is there a win-win solution - this I really hope for but again do not know.

The end and good luck to all involved.

[Bob Fugger]

Bob Fugger, guess you missed the question in there, all questions ended with a "?" making it a question does it not? What I did notice is the lack of answers at least to some of the questions, some that you have shown knowledge towards.

Here is the reality again; is there anything that we can do, no. Will I be contacting Municipal Hall on Monday and find an answer to your comment - absolutely/hopefully (about the third option). Will the road be repaired or even better improved to accommodate everybody - honestly don't know only time will tell. Is this issue just going to disappear, no. Is it stressful for everybody, yes. Are you and I going to find a solution - doubt it. Is there a win-win solution - this I really hope for but again do not know.

The end and good luck to all involved.

I wish you luck at Municipal Hall. Some friendly advice: you should probably cut the sarcasm when dealing with Central Saanich municipal staff. If you try to be smart with them and confirm that they are familiar with dictionary definitions and points of grammar, you might not get anywhere. I understand that they can be extremely officious, even at the best of times...and you'll be going there on a Monday!

As for your questions: Yes, I did read them. Given that you didn't bother trying to ask them to the farmer, I wasn't really interested in responding to them.