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#1 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:41 AM

The government loves to pit us against each other. It certainly solves a lot of their problems like answering why they keep cutting funding for education and take a hard-fisted approach to negotiating with the individuals who literally raise our children (let's face it, teachers spend more time in a day with kids than most parents do) and make every attempt to turn kids into productive and respectable members of society.

Unfortunately most parents today would rather berate a teacher under the guise that they are free-loading and lazy, than to take the time to learn for themselves just what the reality is within the classrooms they send their children to every day.

Nevertheless, since this is a thread about RCMP funding, all I have to say is we're on a great path as a society with increased security/policing spending and continuously reduced support for public education.


Wow, you have bought right into the union garbage.

Provincial funding for education, either on a per-student or overall rate has NEVER decreased in the last 20 years.

I think we are mistaken to think that throwing more money at education is the solution. It's more complex than that, and requires a complete overhaul of how we teach now, because it should not be the same as it was 75 years ago.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#2 Mike K.

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:51 AM

And you've bought into the government's garbage. So where does that leave us?

But yes, funding has been cut. It has taken the form of removing counselors from high schools, removing teaching assistants from classrooms, re-integrating special needs students into the general class populations, cutting classroom supply budgets, cutting sports budgets, and the list goes on.

Ironically your assertion that we need to look at how we teach is exactly what the Liberals, whom I take it you support in this debate, are not doing. In fact their legislation is pushing us decades into the past through the removal of services and teaching aid and an increase in class sizes.

For the record I am of the opinion that unions have done their part to harm teachers and students and they continue to bully teachers into supporting their latest gimmicks.

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#3 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:03 AM

But yes, funding has been cut. It has taken the form of removing counselors from high schools, removing teaching assistants from classrooms, re-integrating special needs students into the general class populations, cutting classroom supply budgets, cutting sports budgets, and the list goes on.


I don't doubt that the money has been redistributed, we probably have more management positions than ever before. But again, the per-student spending has not been cut. It's not up to the government how districts spend their allotment.

Ironically your assertion that we need to look at how we teach is exactly what the Liberals, whom I take it you support in this debate, are not doing. In fact their legislation is pushing us decades into the past through the removal of services and teaching aid and an increase in class sizes.



I think many advanced students would do just fine in 45-pupil classrooms. But we have some type of arbitrary limit that doesn't take in account either end of the learning-speed spectrum.

If we could have 45 students in an advanced class, and a group of 15 in a harder-to-teach classroom, that'd make more sense than the current arbitrary size caps.

I don't know why a special-needs student working at a grade 3 learning level is ever in a grade-7 classroom, BTW.

For the record I am of the opinion that unions have done their part to harm teachers and students and they continue to bully teachers into supporting their latest gimmicks.


I agree. If I was a teacher, I'd wonder what I'm getting for all my union dues spent on advertising campaigns.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#4 Mike K.

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:17 AM

I think many advanced students would do just fine in 45-pupil classrooms. But we have some type of arbitrary limit that doesn't take in account either end of the learning-speed spectrum.


The issue is that there are no resources for the advanced students. They are lumped in with the general student population, many of whom don't want to be in school, and many still who disrupt the classroom when they are in school. We all know the class clowns as they are called who feel it is their duty to suppress the ability of the teacher to teach and their classmates to learn.

Back when I was in high school the district was experimenting with what was called a challenge program. Esquimalt was the primary school for this and for the most part, it worked by separating students who wanted to learn and wanted to be in school from the general population. This program has now been canceled. Together with the reintroduction of special needs students into the general population further erodes the ability for a teacher to manage the needs of 30+ kids.

I don't know why a special-needs student working at a grade 3 learning level is ever in a grade-7 classroom, BTW.


And it's not just that. There are a lot of kids with disruptive behavioral issues. These kids received attention from teaching aids and student services in the past, but now they are thrown in with the general student population and the teachers (most with no skills to handle behavioral problems or learning disabilities) are tasked with managing them and the rest of their class.

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#5 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:24 AM

Doesn't surprise you then that the private-school population is rising, does it.

Huh, and look, those private school teachers make way less money that public school teachers do. Maybe it's not all about the money that teachers make, that determines the level of teaching.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#6 Sparky

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:45 AM

All right you two......don't make me have to moderate you.

I have watched my two daughters go from K-12 and one of them beyond in the public system. My business partner sent his two boys to private school.

All four of them turned out fine. In all fairness it is up to the student as to how well they do.

All they need is a warm dry desk and a book.

#7 davek

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:16 PM

It's also a good idea to keep in mind that government funds public schooling, not public education. They are different things, and withdrawing funding from the former does not necessarily harm the latter.

#8 arfenarf

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:29 PM

Back when I was in high school the district was experimenting with what was called a challenge program. Esquimalt was the primary school for this and for the most part, it worked by separating students who wanted to learn and wanted to be in school from the general population. This program has now been canceled.


I'm watching both sides of this debate with interest and deeply mixed feelings - but must post a correction.

The ESQ Challenge programme is alive and well. It draws kids from across the district and is a superb learning community.

#9 Bernard

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:30 AM

I'm watching both sides of this debate with interest and deeply mixed feelings - but must post a correction.

The ESQ Challenge programme is alive and well. It draws kids from across the district and is a superb learning community.


My oldest son has been in that program, he graduates this year. The program is also run out of Mount Doug.

Meanwhile, as to what is happening with schools and the funds. I see a couple of reasons for problems

1) The public school population is falling and this increases the costs for districts as they can not keep up with staff and facility reductions as quickly. In five years SD#61 has lost close to 4% of its enrolment - 767 fewer pupils.

If you look at FTE, the number is up because of full time Kindergarten, an addition of 700.

2) At the same time French Immersion, an expensive program, has risen from 2741 to 3306, a rise of 565. In 07/08 13.28% were in French Immersion, this year it was 16.63%. 22.67% of 22.52% of 5-5 are in French Immersion. In 2011/12 27.1 of the Kindergarten kids were in French Immersion. High School French Immersion has risen by 50% in five years.

French Immersion will not take any of the kids with any learning disabilities. They do not formally say so, but the system weeds out all the kids that have any difficulty/ This means the percentage of kids in the mainstream that need help is higher than it should be. I have no idea if English Language Learners are "allowed" in French Immersion, but in the early years of school they are around 10% of the enrolment in SD#61.

3) In 2011/12 SD#61 received about $7550 per pupil or $7750 per FTE. In 2010/11 these numbers were $7340 and $7640, in 2009/10 it was $7140 and $7595, and finally in 2008/09 it was $7060 and $7440. The increases have been in line with the rate of inflation.

4) The number of FTE teachers and administrators in SD#61 has remained the same over the last five years 1132.5 to 1148.0 is the range.

5) The average salary paid in SD#61 in 2007/078 was $65,636, in 2011/12 it was $72,223, an increase slightly lower than the rate of inflation.

Make of this what you want

#10 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:37 AM

1) The public school population is falling and this increases the costs for districts as they can not keep up with staff and facility reductions as quickly. In five years SD#61 has lost close to 4% of its enrolment - 767 fewer pupils.


4% loss in 5 years is quick? There is no good reason why they can't keep up with enrollment changes. It's not like one year they get a 14% increase in students moving from 6th grade to 7th. It's pretty easy to see increases and reductions as they move through grades. It might be tougher in Sooke (Wescom), but in #61 they should be able to react well.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#11 Mike K.

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:28 PM

I'm watching both sides of this debate with interest and deeply mixed feelings - but must post a correction.

The ESQ Challenge programme is alive and well. It draws kids from across the district and is a superb learning community.


Is it still operating?? That's great! I had heard otherwise so this news makes me happy :)

I graduated from the challenge program in 2001. I don't think my experience in high school would have been quite as positive and rewarding as it was being a member of the program.

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#12 Matt R.

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:44 PM

Ditto that, glad to hear the Challenge program is alive and well, but what about at the elementary grades? While at Torquay I was placed in the Challenge program at Frank Hobbs, and stuck with it through Jr. high at Cedar Hill. The formative, elementary school years were particularly beneficial, and while I ended up just doing what I love and becoming a cook, it really taught me solid work ethic and the importance of being diligent, life skills that have contributed to my limited success!! ;)

Both of my kids are in french immersion, which for the most part is filled with students whose parents actually give a damn (because they have to!) so the problems we hear about in the general population seem minimized in our reality.

Those of you out there contemplating having children, do yourself a favour and buy them permanent life insurance, max your RESP contributions and pay attention to what's going on at their school. It's NOTHING like it was 20+ years ago.

Matt.

#13 LJ

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:05 PM

^French immersion enrollment is increasing because people see it as a cheap alternative to private school, while still endorsing the "public school" model. The language isn't important, it wouldn't matter if it was German immersion or Chinese immersion it is just a way for students to get out of the "gen pop" of public school.
If we had a charter school system you would see public schools as they are today almost eliminated.
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#14 LJ

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:22 PM


But yes, funding has been cut. It has taken the form of removing counselors from high schools, removing teaching assistants from classrooms, re-integrating special needs students into the general class populations, cutting classroom supply budgets, cutting sports budgets, and the list goes on.

.


Mike, can you show me one budget that had less money for education than the previous one had. Funding has never been "cut", it has increased every year.
Life's a journey......so roll down the window and enjoy the breeze.

#15 Sparky

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:07 PM

pay attention to what's going on at their school.


Matt...no truer words have been spoken. The most rewarding part of my life was being the Parent Advisory Council chairperson through elementary, middle, and high school when our daughters were in the public education system.

Parents that become involved.....have children that become involved.

Just ask Marina the next time you see her.

#16 Mike K.

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:00 PM

The CBC has a neat little interactive map of Canada that shows investment per student and teacher salaries by province.

Interestingly enough BC pays its teachers a wage below the national average and invests below average per student.

The regions that invest less per student are Quebec and the impoverished east coast provinces.

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#17 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:01 PM

^French immersion enrollment is increasing because people see it as a cheap alternative to private school, while still endorsing the "public school" model. The language isn't important, it wouldn't matter if it was German immersion or Chinese immersion it is just a way for students to get out of the "gen pop" of public school.
If we had a charter school system you would see public schools as they are today almost eliminated.


I believe this to be true.

And I think Chinese immersion schools would be good. When the Chinese take us over in 20 years or so, they will need local language translators to tell us enslaved workers how to assemble the iPhone 38s in the factories.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#18 Sparky

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:05 PM

^ :)

#19 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:13 PM

The CBC has a neat little interactive map of Canada that shows investment per student and teacher salaries by province.

Interestingly enough BC pays its teachers a wage below the national average and invests below average per student.

The regions that invest less per student are Quebec and the impoverished east coast provinces.


The school system that "invests" the least in teachers salaries in BC is the private school system, that also happens to produce the highest-achieving students.

Seems to me that high teachers salaries does not always equal a good investment.

But bring on merit-based pay for teachers and I'm all for the best ones making $120k a year. We'll put their salaries over a bell curve.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#20 jklymak

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:56 AM

The school system that "invests" the least in teachers salaries in BC is the private school system, that also happens to produce the highest-achieving students.


What study shows that private school children are the "highest-achieving"?

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