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Proposal to reduce municipal speed limit to 40 km/h


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#721 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:56 AM

Yes indeed. That's the problem I have always had with the socialists' approach to governing. They have wonderful solutions for mankind's malaise, then they go around finding problems to penetrate with their solutions.

 

Oh, to me it's much deeper than that.  They think they have wonderful solutions, but most of the solutions they offer are proven time and time again to not be effective.  Yet they bring in ever more bureaucracy to extend these ineffective programs.


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#722 pherthyl

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:04 AM

Can someone point me to the Engineering Department report? The only details I have found so far indicate that the report refers only to Bay Street and Gorge Street, not to the majority of the streets where the change in limits is proposed, and the methodology does not appear to include any inputs for increases in residential population. I would have thought that as the demographics of an area changed, taking a fresh look at speed limits would be a reasonable activity. There is a lot of emotion apparent in this debate, but I've yet to hear anyone explain which roads in the downtown core or around Beacon Hill Park need a speed limit faster than 40k.

 

So far the arguments I've seen are:

  • Council has better things to do (agreed)
  • The Engineering Department recommended something different (but I don't think that was actually to the full proposal, or addressed all of the issues)
  • Roads with transition in speed limits are unsafe (but then this would make the changes to Cook Street, for example, an improvement, as it already has segments in the affected area with lower speeds)
  • Some people won't comply (not much of an argument)
  • Downtown is full of crackheads and when I need to drive downtown from the Westshore I want it all to be at commuting speeds and Victoria City Council should put my interests ahead of the actual residents living in that neighborhood and paying taxes in that district (ok, my own version of vitriol and hyperbole, but only for effect)

It may be true that people inherently drive at what they perceive to be safe speeds, and the 85th percentile measurement may be a valid way to set a speed limit. But that approach does not specifically capture a rapidly changing neighborhood. And it does not capture the desire (of some) for the neighborhoods to be more resident and pedestrian friendly.

 

You missed some arguments:

- Slower speed limits (assuming they are actually effective) would decrease efficiency of transportation on those roads.  

- Implementing this will cost significant taxpayer money

- Implementing this will put people driving at safe speeds on those roads in violation of the law.  

 

By the way, the onus is on the people wanting the change to make the strong arguments.  So what are their arguments so far?

- Slower speeds are safer.  Except I haven't seen any stats on how many pedestrian injuries there are on those roads, and how many are specifically caused by someone driving 50km/h.

- Slower speeds reduce road noise.  Obvious, but not an argument that carries any weight.

- Slower speeds make neighbourhoods more livable.  How exactly?   If you want to encourage cycling, build cycling infrastructure.  I ride a lot and 40 vs 50 doesn't affect me at all, but a good cycle lane does.  

 

Most of the argument seems to be people living on arterial roads that wished they lived on a quiet residential street.  Well that is understandable but you will never turn Quadra into a quiet residential street.  The traffic remains, so now you just get rush hour for longer.



#723 pherthyl

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:11 AM

Yes indeed. That's the problem I have always had with the socialists' approach to governing. They have wonderful solutions for mankind's malaise, then they go around finding problems to penetrate with their solutions.

 

Don't derail the argument by turning this political.   By the way, speed limits in very socialist leaning Denmark?  50 in towns, 130 on highways.    And even the capital is amazingly "livable" because of smart, efficient infrastructure.

From what I saw in Scandinavia, there are far more evidence-based decisions there than here.  



#724 jonny

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:18 AM

If a subset of the population is being victimized by government policy, lobby to change the policy. Introduce a three strikes rule as per California, or how about lobby the government to change the rules and require a minimum 60-day sentence for vehicle vandalism? Second offence, 120 days. 3rd offence 360 days, and so on. Today's repercussions are a total joke and the criminal element knows that.

 

Or how about order the police to enforce the laws that already exist? As far as I know smoking crack is illegal.

 

Or how about council spend some time lobbying the Province to help fund the JSB? I'll never understand why the city never made a big stink out of the Province kicking in $0.00 for this huge project. Complain, release press releases, whine in the media...do whatever it takes to get some funding like Vancouver and Kelowna get!



#725 Mike K.

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:36 AM

And then there's that.

But can you imagine Christy Clark's satisfaction if the NDP farm team on council comes to the Liberals with cup in hand?

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#726 jonny

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:57 AM

More from Mr. Isitt.

 

 

FYI - a critical analysis on conventional approaches to traffic engineering, including data showing how speed kills, with collisions between vehicles and pedestrians at speeds of 50km/h or higher frequently resulting in serious injury or death for the pedestrian.

http://www.copenhage...tile-folly.html

 

Yes, "speed kills". What an absolutely meaningless statement.

 

"Leaving my house kills". I will never leave my house again. It's much safer there. There are just too many ways to die out there in the big scary world.

 

I would love for somebody to demonstrate the root issue here council is trying to address. The only deaths I can remember on Victoria's streets are two girls who were run over by buses downtown that were traveling at very low speeds.



#727 sebberry

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:59 AM

In this increasingly social-media driven world, Ben's twitter-esque email about the 18 seconds comment is to be expected.

 

Justifying policy in 140 characters. 

 

He's as bad as the ill-informed activists posting on CARS.


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#728 Mike K.

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTjZhCsq_TE


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#729 jklymak

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:14 AM

Or how about order the police to enforce the laws that already exist? As far as I know smoking crack is illegal.

 

I don't doubt for a minute the police would arrest public crack smokers if they thought it would lead to charges.  Last I checked the criminal justice system was a provincial and federal responsibility.

 

Perpetuating the myth that social ills like substance abuse and mental illness (and their accompanying petty larceny) are the job of council just gets you social-justice types on council; who, unable to do anything productive, come up with goofy stuff like changing the speed limit.  I say criticize council for not dealing with infrastructure, urban development, and business development, and leave the social justice stuff on the plate of the Provincial government where it belongs.  



#730 Mike K.

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:21 AM

Our council can expend untold time and resources lobbying the province to change speed limits, but lobbying the province to adapt to a changing world of crime is inappropriate?

Politicians are our mouthpiece. They are the ones with the connections and the resources to push for change. Unfortunately the change we need is not something municipal politicians want to get behind.

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#731 jonny

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:26 AM

Our council can expend untold time and resources lobbying the province to change speed limits, but lobbying the province to adapt to a changing world of crime is inappropriate?

Politicians are our mouthpiece. They are the ones with the connections and the resources to push for change. Unfortunately the change we need is not something municipal politicians want to get behind.

 

Or they could have lobbied for bridge funding.

 

Or they could have lobbied for more mental health funding, or more funding for homeless shelters.

 

Instead they have wasted months lobbying for speed limit changes.


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#732 G-Man

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:00 AM

So I am against this change as much or more than all of you but I fail to see a connection with crime. Especially when violent and property crime has been in decline for decades. Saying that Victoria has a high crime rate just plays into the crazy fiefdom mentality that gets us kept out of the Big City Mayor's council. When you look at the metro pop I am sure our crime rate is lower than any other comparable city in the country.
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#733 Mike K.

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

We have fewer murders thanks to better medical techniques, I'll concede that, but everything else is ticking along. Of course crime has spread as the region has expanded. 30 years ago there was far less "city" in this region to pillage so criminals concentrated their efforts in a smaller area.

In the past week there have been nearly 30 home break and enters JUST in the city of Victoria. For anyone who has been victimized by this sort of crime it is a terrible experience, it challenges your perception of safety and can severely impact young family members. Mayor Fortin can attest to this but of course he has other priorities now.

I can't think of any other Canadian city other than Vancouver that has such a high level of visible crime in busy areas. Drugs are dealt openly, they are used openly, thieves scour the streets looking for easy home and vehicle targets, and meanwhile speed limits are the real scourge of our region.

If you look at Victoria's B&E stats you'll see many if not most occur in the 9AM-noon timeframe. These guys are active during the day and not by night when they're easy to spot and everyone is at home. We all have this notion that crime only occurs when we're all tucked in at night.

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#734 G-Man

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:32 AM

That is all anecdotal. I would like to see some metro stats that show that greater Victoria has a per captia higher crime rate than other cities. I don't believe it.

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#735 G-Man

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:36 AM

NM Here you go:

http://www.statcan.g...ng.htm#tbl03n_4

Seems we have a low crime rate. I count 11 cma's ahead of us.

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#736 G-Man

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:42 AM

And crime has decreased 34 percent since 2007.

There is a lot that council should be working on and crime and policing is one but certainly not the issue to use to say that Council has its head in the clouds. Business investment? Yes. Tourism? Yes. Getting the JSB back on track? Yes. But runaway crime? The stats don't seem to be saying that. That said I would go for trumpeting a regional police force.
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#737 Mike K.

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:46 AM

Check right here:http://www.statcan.g....htm?fpv=269303

In terms of "crime severity" per-capita we're ahead of Toronto, Calgary, Quebec, Ottawa, Gatineau, Hamilton, Windsor, Guelph, Kitchener-Waterloo, and many other CMA's. We're neck to neck with Montreal, Halifax, Sudbury and London.

The prairies have serious issues with gang violence and the lower Mainland is in a world of its own as far as a big city goes in Canada, and some of that spills over to us.

Anyways, the notion that this is a sleepy shallow and crime is only due to skewed numbers is false.

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#738 Nparker

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:59 AM

...I say criticize council for not dealing with infrastructure, urban development, and business development, and leave the social justice stuff on the plate of the Provincial government where it belongs.  

This X 100%!!!



#739 Mike K.

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:55 AM

City Hall's Ming Moodrey responded to my letter. In the response we learn that City staff are, in fact, tasked with implementing the reduced limits by this fall. I also was not aware that now the entire downtown will be a 40 zone, but whether that includes Harris Green I don't know.

"Council considered the technical advice from staff as well as the feedback from the public, both for and against the proposal. In the end, Council determined that public safety would be enhanced if speed limits were lowered on the specified streets.

City staff will be working on the implementation plan this summer in an effort to bring these changes into effect by the fall."

---------------------

To be honest I loath even more responsibility being placed on drivers in the downtown core. Where the real problem lies is with pedestrians simply not paying attention or walking out on crosswalks without even glancing at oncoming traffic. And if a vehicle doesn't immediately come to a screeching halt they yell and scream, even show you the finger. So since we're about to install a slew of signs how about signage reminding pedestrians to STOP and LOOK before entering crosswalks?

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#740 Greg

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:13 AM

Where the real problem lies is with pedestrians simply not paying attention or walking out on crosswalks without even glancing at oncoming traffic.

 

That may be your idea of where the real problem lies, but it is not mine. The downtown core (old town) should be treated as a pedestrian zone first and foremost IMHO. Cars should slow down and expect people in crosswalks. And for every person who wanders blindly into a crosswalk, I see two or three cars who blaze through them unaware of what crosswalks even are for.



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