11586 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

Until the batteries need to be replaced. That's the hidden cost nobody is talking about, and with that hidden cost also comes an environmental cost that's been swept under the rug.

[LeoVictoria]

Until the batteries need to be replaced. That's the hidden cost nobody is talking about, and with that hidden cost also comes an environmental cost that's been swept under the rug.

 

Everyone is talking about it actually.  Looks like current batteries properly temperature controlled will go about 200,000 - 300,000km before they have lost too much capacity to be practical.   In other words about the time you are going to replace your car anyway.

After that they can be either reused in energy storage projects (currently being done for used i3 and Leaf batteries) or recycled.  

 

Tesla has partnered with a research team in eastern Canada that recently announced they have doubled the life of LiOn batteries so again, this is going to be a non-issue.

Edited by LeoVictoria, 17 May 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[MarkoJ]

Well to be fair Tesla reliability has been not great.   About on par now with other luxury brands.   More to do with the newness of the company though.   Other electric cars have been more reliable.  Either way going forward they will be far more reliable than any gas car.

 

When I bought the Tesla I kept my BMW for 10 months as a back-up as Tesla reliability was pretty bad to start so going into the purchased I assumed it would have to get towed to Vancouver a couple of times in the first year.  Seems though if you have a production version after 100,000 they are relatively problem free.

[lanforod]

^ the issue i've been hearing about a lot is the tires. If you get a flat, you're getting towed, it's a custom tire on a custom rim, and they tend to go flat more than most low profiles do.

Edited by lanforod, 17 May 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[LeoVictoria]

Here is the battery data on Tesla's so far.   Very few instances of less than 90% capacity over 200,000 km

 

[spanky123]

^ the issue i've been hearing about a lot is the tires. If you get a flat, you're getting towed, it's a custom tire on a custom rim, and they tend to go flat more than most low profiles do.

 

Not true. There are two tire options, 19" and 21". Both are standard tires although Tesla, like many other luxury manufacturers, uses a version with sound deadening materials which may be harder to find. No requirement to use that tire as a replacement though. The 21" are low profile and like most low profile tires don't do well with curbs or potholes. The 19" are standard profile.

[Mike K.]

Everyone is talking about it actually. Looks like current batteries properly temperature controlled will go about 200,000 - 300,000km before they have lost too much capacity to be practical. In other words about the time you are going to replace your car anyway.
After that they can be either reused in energy storage projects (currently being done for used i3 and Leaf batteries) or recycled.

Tesla has partnered with a research team in eastern Canada that recently announced they have doubled the life of LiOn batteries so again, this is going to be a non-issue.

I'm not so sure that that's the case for the majority of electrics out there (and I'm not talking about Tesla's).

Take a Leaf as an example. $34k and up brand new. A couple of years old with 50k and you can pick them up for $12-$15,000.

[VicHockeyFan]

$12,900 for a 2015 Smart or $15,500 and $15,900 for a pair of 2014/15 electric Fiats in Sidney:

 

https://motorize.ca/inventory/

[rjag]

$12,900 for a 2015 Smart or $15,500 and $15,900 for a pair of 2014/15 electric Fiats in Sidney:

 

https://motorize.ca/inventory/

 

Or $15k for a fully loaded 2014 Honda Civic 

http://www.autotrade...CPO&orup=1_15_9

 

or $15k for a 2017 Corolla with 1,800km 

http://www.autotrade...PO&orup=3_15_48

 

There is no real value proposition to justify these electric cars when you get more bang for your $ for a similar price.

[MarkoJ]

^ the issue i've been hearing about a lot is the tires. If you get a flat, you're getting towed, it's a custom tire on a custom rim, and they tend to go flat more than most low profiles do.

 

Function of luxury car, nothing to do with electric drivetrain.  Leaf tires are cheap.

[VicHockeyFan]

Or $15k for a fully loaded 2014 Honda Civic 

http://www.autotrade...CPO&orup=1_15_9

 

or $15k for a 2017 Corolla with 1,800km 

http://www.autotrade...PO&orup=3_15_48

 

There is no real value proposition to justify these electric cars when you get more bang for your $ for a similar price.

 

You must hate our planet.      

[sebberry]

With the Greenies holding the balance of power in the legislature, who will protest and demand we build site C to power all these electric cars?

[LeoVictoria]

I'm not so sure that that's the case for the majority of electrics out there (and I'm not talking about Tesla's).

Take a Leaf as an example. $34k and up brand new. A couple of years old with 50k and you can pick them up for $12-$15,000.

 

We're talking battery life, now you're talking about depreciation?   

 

Leaf battery doesn't have active cooling, which is a big problem if you're in a hot climate.   You can get away with it in Victoria though.   All the new electrics have actively cooled batteries.   

 

Or $15k for a fully loaded 2014 Honda Civic 

http://www.autotrade...CPO&orup=1_15_9

 

or $15k for a 2017 Corolla with 1,800km 

http://www.autotrade...PO&orup=3_15_48

 

There is no real value proposition to justify these electric cars when you get more bang for your $ for a similar price.

 

Huh?   A civic is not "more bang".  That's less bang in every respect if you're looking for a commuter car where you don't need the range.   

[North Shore]

EV article in the Financial Post..

 

http://business.fina...ng-the-industry

 

8 years might be a little optimistic, but then again, in 2005, Kodak was #1 in US digital camera sales, and by 2012, they filed for bankruptcy...

[Mike K.]

We're talking battery life, now you're talking about depreciation?

I'd wager the extreme depreciation relative to mileage indicates as the vehicle ages, a monstrous battery expense looms.

Without those batteries in optimum operating order the vehicle is useless. And that's a major risk factored into the lead weight of their value, I guess.

I'm shocked those vehicles are $34k for a base model. You can buy some serious vehicle for $34k, or get into a loaded import sedan for many thousands less but great mileage ($50 a fill-up and 800km to a tank HWY for the new Civic).

[rjag]

 

 

Huh?   A civic is not "more bang".  That's less bang in every respect if you're looking for a commuter car where you don't need the range.   

 

I would say a damn site better car when compared to a leaf, but we've had this discussion before and I know you own a Leaf and you like it. I'm comparing value for money 

 

different strokes....

 

EV sales are minimalistic and continue to be a niche vehicle with annual national sales stable at 0.5% of cars sold in Canada. Of that number I wonder how many are bought by public entities such as Saanich?

 

11,000 EV sales out of 1,983,745 vehicles sold in Canada for 2016. http://www.fleetcarm...ada-2016-final/

 

Oh and by the way, Honda Civic for 2016 sold 15,677 units compared to all 11,000 EV's.

http://www.goodcarba...ales-stats.html

 

 

Rank

Best-Selling Car

2016

2015

% 
Change

#1

Honda Civic

64,552

64,950

-0.6%

#2

Hyundai Elantra

48,875

47,722

2.4%

#3

Toyota Corolla

45,626

47,198

-3.3%

#4

Mazda 3

27,689

34,811

-20.5%

Edited by rjag, 17 May 2017 - 08:41 PM.

[rjag]

I'd wager the extreme depreciation relative to mileage indicates as the vehicle ages, a monstrous battery expense looms.

Without those batteries in optimum operating order the vehicle is useless. And that's a major risk factored into the lead weight of their value, I guess.

I'm shocked those vehicles are $34k for a base model. You can buy some serious vehicle for $34k, or get into a loaded import sedan for many thousands less but great mileage ($50 a fill-up and 800km to a tank HWY for the new Civic).

 

http://www.fleetcarm...t-electric-car/

 

Average seems to be about 50,000 miles for the Leaf compared to a Civic, Marko's Tesla wins right away when compared to a Merc S class 

[Mike K.]

Is that with the $7,500US subsidy factored in to the price?

[rjag]

Is that with the $7,500US subsidy factored in to the price?

 

 

 

Not may cars can compare to the Model S in terms of performance or luxury, but the CLS-Class is one of the few cars on the market that puts up a fight. On a cost basis, the Model S starts out roughly $3,400 cheaper than the CLS thanks to the $7,500 federal tax credit and offers luxury buyers huge fuel cost savings the very first time they take it for a spin. Over the course of 100,000 miles, the Model S costs more than $12,000 less to own than the CLS-Class, which requires expensive premium gasoline.

[LeoVictoria]

> I'm comparing value for money

Clearly you aren't. The civic you posted is the same amount to buy and will cost about an extra $1000/year to run as a commuter