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Micro Housing Victoria


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#1 Mike K.

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 06:54 AM

Micro Housing Victoria is the proponent of the six-unit Cook Street micro housing proposal to be situated on a lot made available to residents as parking following the City of Victoria's removal of on-street parking. The lot is situated between Hillside Avenue and 

 

Micro Housing Victoria had expected City of Victoria councillors to hold a vote on May 12th on whether to allow the organization to present its plans to council, however, residents were highly critical of the City's consultation process considering a preliminary consultation session had only been held a day earlier (May 11th). At a Committee of the Whole meeting on the morning of May 12th, council directed staff to seek additional information regarding the proposal and have postponed a vote until the 26th of May.

 

There is also speculation that the City of Victoria have have misplaced the agreement regarding the Cook Street lot and its use as parking for residents.

 

cook-street-micro-housing.jpg


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#2 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 07:03 AM

I have a major concern that these 6 micro-homes are temporary.  What does that mean?  

 

And that they need "supports".  

 

I'm a fan of distributing the homeless, but we do this so there is less need for support/supervision.  Having "supports" for 6 people seems like a major cost.


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#3 knightofstjohn

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 11:27 AM

I have a major concern that these 6 micro-homes are temporary.  What does that mean?  

 

And that they need "supports".  

 

I'm a fan of distributing the homeless, but we do this so there is less need for support/supervision.  Having "supports" for 6 people seems like a major cost.

It all just seems like an attempt to say they've done something. I've done a lot of research recently (for obvious reasons!) and where micro housing works is in enclaves that include built in services (mental health supports, drug and alcohol related counselling, employment assistance, etc.). One of the big things city staff pointed out is there's a significant risk that the Victoria taxpayers will end up shouldering the whole project if this group fails. Their hearts may be in the right place but they thus far seem to have no experience and no known funding source (again according to the report prepared by city staff).

  

Anyway, possible merits (or lack of) aside, the City is now "looking into" whether or not they may have actually made promises regarding the lot on Cook Street. However, city staff is telling them if there's nothing registered they can do what they want. Thornton Joe is the only one to come out and say they need to honour their commitments. Clearly something was agreed to, whether in writing or not. I hear there's honour amongst thieves, how about politicians? :)  


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#4 Nparker

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 11:37 AM

...I hear there's honour amongst thieves, how about politicians?  :)  

Aren't they the same thing?



#5 aastra

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 12:11 PM

 

Clearly something was agreed to, whether in writing or not. I hear there's honour amongst thieves, how about politicians?

 

For some background on the city's attitude re: honouring agreements, see here:

https://scc-csc.lexu...m/1829/index.do



#6 knightofstjohn

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 02:08 PM

For some background on the city's attitude re: honouring agreements, see here:

https://scc-csc.lexu...m/1829/index.do

Thanks for that. Quite interesting and this is what peaked my interest:

 

"The implied term does not bind the City from rezoning for any length of time: it simply recognizes that in consideration of PNI’s initial investment, a change in zoning must be offset by compensation." 

 

So perhaps they can do as they please, but they might perhaps have to compensate those involved. What's a parking spot worth per year for a period of three to five years? (times however many people use the spot lets say 8 as a guess). Maybe a $100 a month ($100 x 12 = $1200 x 5 years = $6,000 x 8 people = $48,000). Well, taxpayers, I guess this might not cost the city only $21,000 after all and it has very quickly become a cost prohibitive project to house 6 people...   


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#7 Bernard

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 02:56 PM

The lot, PID 014212978, is city owned.   Without paying there is no way for me to know if there are any easements on the property.  The current legal address for the property is 2582 Cook Street

 

the property is a bit of a problem for any development because of the size - 2980 sq feet.     It is zoned R-2 which means the total building envelope on this property is about 20 square meters

 

Without a rezoning nothing can be done on this property



#8 knightofstjohn

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 05:59 PM

The lot, PID 014212978, is city owned.   Without paying there is no way for me to know if there are any easements on the property.  The current legal address for the property is 2582 Cook Street

 

the property is a bit of a problem for any development because of the size - 2980 sq feet.     It is zoned R-2 which means the total building envelope on this property is about 20 square meters

 

Without a rezoning nothing can be done on this property

 

The lot, PID 014212978, is city owned.   Without paying there is no way for me to know if there are any easements on the property.  The current legal address for the property is 2582 Cook Street

 

the property is a bit of a problem for any development because of the size - 2980 sq feet.     It is zoned R-2 which means the total building envelope on this property is about 20 square meters

 

Without a rezoning nothing can be done on this property

According to the city there are no registered easements. They claim that by granting the Temporary Use Permit (something generally used for the erection of structures like bathrooms on construction sites or beer tents at festivals) that they don't need to re-zone it (but it would allow them to house people there for three years, renewable for another three years. At which point they would have to move it or re-zone it properly).

 

This method would in effect allow the city (or any municipality for that matter) to take any property they own anywhere and put on it semi-permanent structures to house people (or for any other use) for up to six years without having to go through a public hearing or any of the more rigorous zoning procedures. Which is why I would suggest this matter has far more impact than just what happens in my neighbourhood...  


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#9 Nparker

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 06:45 PM

Does it surprise anyone that this Council once again wants to play fast & loose with the rules to achieve their personal agenda? Do we really have to wait another 2.5 years to get rid of these menaces?



#10 Bernard

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 07:11 PM

So it would not be a permanent building?   What would it be, some Atco trailers?

 

The idea of doing something temporary makes no sense.    There is no security of any tenure for the people living there


Edited by Bernard, 14 May 2016 - 07:12 PM.


#11 Nparker

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 07:45 PM

...The idea of doing something temporary makes no sense...

But it allows Council to push something onto this lot with little or no consultation with the neighbourhood. It's Mt. Edwards all over again. 



#12 Sparky

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 12:22 AM

Bernard would know more about this type of thing, but there was some sort of situation where a doctor or lawyer used to park his car somewhere by the water on Wharf Street and walk through vacant property to his office and back. Many years later when they started to build the Victoria Regent Hotel, the owners has to pay him something for his common law easement that he had created by using that vacant property for so many years.

 

If there is any truth to this, that may help in this situation.



#13 Wally

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 02:36 AM

From what I can tell, the group proposing the micro housing has no track record at all in either supplying micro housing or serving the homeless. You have to onder if this is not just a set up from the start to give the City a backdoor into the project after the proponents 'fail'.



#14 Arnold

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 07:02 AM

^ Of course it is. This group started with a $25,000 grant from the City of Victoria.

 

It's part of "The Plan".



#15 knightofstjohn

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 08:09 AM

Bernard would know more about this type of thing, but there was some sort of situation where a doctor or lawyer used to park his car somewhere by the water on Wharf Street and walk through vacant property to his office and back. Many years later when they started to build the Victoria Regent Hotel, the owners has to pay him something for his common law easement that he had created by using that vacant property for so many years.

 

If there is any truth to this, that may help in this situation.

 

Thank you, yes it does. We've been looking into it as well. It's not just a right of way/easement thing, apparently it's considered a kind of "fair trespass" if it's never addressed and can create rights for the user (I'm not sure of the correct language in this case but that's the gist). I was told there was a court case in tofino as well where the town tried to take their own land back from someone who had put a bunch of plants on it and tended it for years. The compensatory costs ended up being too high for the township so they just let the property owner keep it... 



#16 lanforod

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 03:29 PM

Makes me wonder why CN rail won the Arbutus corridor back.

#17 Bernard

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 07:02 PM

In English common law use of land can create rights over the objections of the owner of the land but in BC we do not use English common law for property rights.   BC made a break with the English system in 1858 with the passage of the Gold Act, which actually deals with water rights.    

 

In the 1870s there was a mayor case in BC that decided traditional common law was trumped by the laws passed by BC.   This case went all the way privy council in the UK for the final decision.

 

The only way someone would be owed some form of compensation is if there was some sort of contract allowing access to the parking space.   Could it be a verbal one?  Maybe but unlikely.   Can verbal agreement become a legal easement?   I do not see how because the easement has to be registered with land titles.   

 

When a title is transferred in BC and there is an error on the land title register, it is the province's liability to compensate the parties.   This liability is if the land title office screws up, not if the owner of land or an interest in the land make a mistake.

 

If someone does not register an interest on the land title it does not exist.    To register an easement or other interest in the land, the owner of the interest and the owner of the land have to both consent to it being registered.

 

The long and the short of it, if it is not registered at land titles it is not an issue.   I can let people walk on my land for 50 years with no restrictions and then one day ban them and there is no right to access the land.

 

Properties in Victoria have a history in land titles going back to 1861.   The house I live in has a land title history that can be traced back, through the subdivisions,  to 1861.   Nothing gets removed from this record, ever.

 

Now this person may have had some form of contract that was not an easement.   

 

The only non registered interests that can impact title in BC are archaeological sites from before 1848 and aboriginal title and rights.


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#18 Sparky

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 07:23 PM

Thanks Bernard.

#19 Bernard

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 07:37 PM

I should have added, an easement created through use is called a prescriptive easement and the Land Title Act in BC specifically does not allow for them.   



#20 Nparker

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 01:02 PM

From CFAX:

...the property at 2582 Cook Street was purchased by the city in 1937 through a tax sale. Then, when Cook Street was widened in the 1980's at the cost of some on-street parking, the property was paved and made into a free parking lot for neighourhood residents. After examining old files and council minutes, staff now say they have found no evidence the city is under any historical obligation to continue providing free parking at the lot.

Once again the city will be able to side-step any input from neighbours in order to push ahead with one of Council's pet projects. Meanwhile, an extra few metres on the Northern Junk project is scrutinized to death for fear of sparking Armageddon.


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