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The ECHL vs. WHL Arena Lease Thread


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#1 pontcanna

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 07:46 PM

I promised to start this thread a few days back.

Surprised nobody seems to be talking about RG Properties' interest in showing the Salmon Kings the door in favour of a WHL franchise (likely relocated). This is being strongly encouraged by City Hall. I'm not sure attendance will change too much (no more triple headers may help) while the owners continue to have no clue about marketing, but I imagine costs will be less (excepting the large WHL franchise fee).

Discuss :)

#2 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 07:57 PM

The interesting stuff is the very strong rumours of the NHL Coyotes move to Winnipeg now.

That could land us an AHL team with super-strong drawing power (Canucks farm-team). When Winnipeg visited Abbotsford this year, attendance ranged between 5500 and 7000+ this year and two of the games were after New Years weekend on the following Mon/Tuesday.

Abbotsford is only averaging 3655 this year.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#3 spanky123

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 08:20 PM

Outside of Victoria, I don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting that the Moose would come to Victoria. It would make zero sense for an AHL to have a franchise here, heck the closest opponent would be a 5 hour flight away with transfers! We going to have a Victoria - Texas rivalry?

Obviously RG is losing a bundle on the Skings and looking for a cheaper alternative. The WHL makes sense as long as RG doesn't try to charge $20 a pop for admission to make up for their losses.

#4 G-Man

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 08:29 PM

^ It does not take five hours to fly to Abbotsford does it?

I really hope that we do not get a WHL team I will never go again. Why would we want to go down the league ladder and think that improves anything.

AHL would be awesome though!

#5 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 05:05 AM


Obviously RG is losing a bundle on the Skings and looking for a cheaper alternative. The WHL makes sense as long as RG doesn't try to charge $20 a pop for admission to make up for their losses.


Kelowna WHL prices are actually slightly more than our ECHL ticket prices ($23 standard, $30 club). RG runs that arena, but not the team. That team averages 6078 this year. We average 3645.

Attendance tracker.

I'd suggest that RG is looking at the Kelowna example and liking what they see.

I think the AHL coming here would require another one or two western ECHL teams to make a step up too, or new AHL teams in Seattle and/or Portland. But I'm not sure much is happening in this regard.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#6 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 08:45 AM

Bruins fans have exchanged rumours about the team's future in Chilliwack for several months, with many noting that the Bruins' lease at Prospera Centre expires at the end of the current season. That talk exploded Friday after News 1130 reported that the Bruins were for sale and that Graham Lee--who owns RG Properties, a Vancouver development company--had been spotted at a Bruins game. That same day the Victoria Times-Colonist reported that the City of Victoria will extend RG Properties' lease on that city's 7,400-seat arena if the company attracts a Western Hockey League team.


Read more: http://www.chilliwac...l#ixzz1G7aR2pus
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#7 Lorenzo

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 10:27 AM

Read more: http://www.chilliwac...l#ixzz1G7aR2pus


I heard on the radio that Len Barrie was rumoured to be a part of this deal with RG.

Call me crazy, but is there anyone left that is stupid enough to pony up with him again?

What a country! :D

#8 Bernard

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 10:53 AM

If we had WHL, I would go to watch that regularly. I can not get behind the ECHL, the players are has beens and never will bes that move in and out so often you can not keep track.

With the WHL you know you are watching the best future players in the world. You are seeing the household names of 2016 now.

Having watched WHL and ECHL, it feels like the players try harder in the WHL.

The WHL also has real places in the league and not unknown US locations where no one cares about hockey. The Giants, Rockets, Blazers, Ice and Cougars would be great teams to watch.

The ECHL plays in larger centres than the WHL but has a lower attendance. Here are this year's averages in WHL towns smaller than Victoria but with a higher attendance

Kelowna 6,078.1
Spokane 5,798.0
Everett 5,283.8
Tri-City 4,543.7
Red Deer 4,500.2
Saskatoon 4,380.9
Brandon 4,284.1
Kamloops 4,052.7
Medicine Hat 4,006.0
Regina 3,861.0

Abbotsford in the AHL draws better than the Salmon Kings do.

People in Canada follow Major Junior Hockey, with teams nearby in the WHL, there would be people coming to town to watch a Victoria WHL team

#9 Holden West

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 11:07 AM

The WHL Cougars never drew great numbers when they played here.
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
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#10 Bernard

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 12:00 PM

The WHL Cougars never drew great numbers when they played here.


The drew not badly until the early 80s when they were run into the ground.

A WHL is also much cheaper to operate than an ECHL team.

#11 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 12:12 PM

A WHL is also much cheaper to operate than an ECHL team.


True, because the players are just paid a small stipend, and offered scholarship money if they go to school. The vast majority of them will never play a game of professional hockey. They are not good enough. That's why I'm not interested in a WHL team.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#12 jonny

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 01:26 PM

I am one of those that feels like the ECHL is a garbage league of players who were never good enough and cannot be good enough but try hard. ECHL players will be hard pressed to ever make the AHL never mind the NHL.

I have to look up half the cities that have ECHL teams. I didn't know there was an Ontario in California until going to a SK game. I do have a friend that lives in Bakersfield though. :rolleyes:

The Salmon Kings is an awful name too. The logo is even worse. Fish with a crown? Who designed that hideous monstrosity?

I would be excited if a WHL team came back to Victoria and ecstatic if an AHL team moved here although I think that is unlikely. The only possibility, in my opinion, is if an NHL team moves to Winnipeg in which case the Moose will have to move.

Abbotsford struggling does dampen my enthusiasm for the AHL, but having the Canucks affiliate in Victoria would be a great opportunity to leverage the Canucks brand, which is obviously very strong right now. I think we'd even see people from Vancouver come over to see the prospects play. People said Abbotsford was too far away from most teams to be awarded an AHL team, yet they have one now.

#13 Bernard

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 03:29 PM

AHL here is not realistic due to the travel requirements. The Abbotsford heat have better access to several airports to get them where they need to get to, even then they are very isolated in the league and will not survive there.

As the quality of the hockey, in the 18-20 year old range you can not find better hockey than in Canadian Major Junior hockey. Most of them will not play in the NHL, but more of them will play in the NHL than skaters coming through the ECHL.

On average every team in the WHL has two players drafted by an NHL team each year. Each drafted player has about a one in three chance of making the NHL. Odds are that about 70-80% will play at least one season in the AHL or NHL.

A number of these drafted players will continue playing for the team for another couple of years. On any given night at an WHL game you will be watching eight drafted players and four more that will be drafted that coming summer, of these 12, four will end up regularly playing in the NHL.

Meanwhile the ECHL track record - I know of a single skater that played regularly in the ECHL and then made it to become a regular in the NHL - that would be Alex Burrows. There are goalies that have done the move, but they are different realm because if you have more than 2 in your development system you have to send one to the ECHL.

When I watch the WHL I know I am watching the future stars of the NHL, with the ECHL, well I know I am watching guys that can not make not only the NHL, but also not the AHL, KHL, SEL, DEL or SM-liiga

#14 dirtydeeds

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 03:40 PM

If we had WHL, I would go to watch that regularly. I can not get behind the ECHL, the players are has beens and never will bes that move in and out so often you can not keep track.

With the WHL you know you are watching the best future players in the world. You are seeing the household names of 2016 now.

Having watched WHL and ECHL, it feels like the players try harder in the WHL.


I completely agree, to say the whl is a league step down as previously stated is an uninformed comment. I find the whl games on TV very exciting to watch and with players you might have a better chance of seeing playing in the NHL someday. I have been to 3 salmon king games and will not go even if I had free tix again. I find the hockey slow and boring. I am all for the WHL!

#15 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 03:43 PM

On average every team in the WHL has two players drafted by an NHL team each year. Each drafted player has about a one in three chance of making the NHL. Odds are that about 70-80% will play at least one season in the AHL or NHL.

A number of these drafted players will continue playing for the team for another couple of years. On any given night at an WHL game you will be watching eight drafted players and four more that will be drafted that coming summer, of these 12, four will end up regularly playing in the NHL.

Meanwhile the ECHL track record - I know of a single skater that played regularly in the ECHL and then made it to become a regular in the NHL - that would be Alex Burrows. There are goalies that have done the move, but they are different realm because if you have more than 2 in your development system you have to send one to the ECHL.


But now you are comparing any WHLer that makes the NHL (for one or more games) against "becoming a regular in the NHL" for our ECHL guys.

In addition to Burrows, 463 other ECHLers have made the NHL. Here is the list:

http://echl.com/alumni-s12397
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#16 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 08:12 AM

According to CFAX, an unnamed source inside the WHL says a deal is 70% done, with a sale price of $7M for the Chilliwack Bruins.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#17 pontcanna

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 08:52 AM

I think we're seeing why the SK's will never "break through" to the 5,000+ per night level that RG anticipated when they came to town. The current 3,000+ level is ludicrously inflated anyway.

Canadians are very comfortable with Major-Junior and will not take to a third tier professional league, regardless of how Dub-studly many of the players in the E actually are. The whole "E" thing is alienating anyway (rebranding or no, it's still considered the East Coast League, which brings to mind the Charlestown Chiefs) and only the "men vs. boys" diehards care about "Ontario" (?) Bakersfield etc.

I have enjoyed many of the SK games and have seen some damn good players and teams come through town, including the SK's when they were on form (before pushing Goldie out in favour of "miracle captain" Vandermeer, who did his best to live up to the E rep of cement-head goon).

In retrospect, that move may go down as the blow that doomed the Salmon Kings in this town. Even a decent playoff run may not bring the numbers up - as people/businesses have to "re-up" their financial commitment to buy playoff tickets knowing the team is a lame duck.

#18 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 09:29 AM

I think we're seeing why the SK's will never "break through" to the 5,000+ per night level that RG anticipated when they came to town. The current 3,000+ level is ludicrously inflated anyway.

Canadians are very comfortable with Major-Junior and will not take to a third tier professional league, regardless of how Dub-studly many of the players in the E actually are. The whole "E" thing is alienating anyway (rebranding or no, it's still considered the East Coast League, which brings to mind the Charlestown Chiefs) and only the "men vs. boys" diehards care about "Ontario" (?) Bakersfield etc.

I have enjoyed many of the SK games and have seen some damn good players and teams come through town, including the SK's when they were on form (before pushing Goldie out in favour of "miracle captain" Vandermeer, who did his best to live up to the E rep of cement-head goon).

In retrospect, that move may go down as the blow that doomed the Salmon Kings in this town. Even a decent playoff run may not bring the numbers up - as people/businesses have to "re-up" their financial commitment to buy playoff tickets knowing the team is a lame duck.


Well-said. I know what I like, but that doesn't mean what I like is what others do. I believe the WHL will draw better than the E does now.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#19 Bernard

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 09:57 AM

But now you are comparing any WHLer that makes the NHL (for one or more games) against "becoming a regular in the NHL" for our ECHL guys.

In addition to Burrows, 463 other ECHLers have made the NHL. Here is the list:

http://echl.com/alumni-s12397


I know that list and I think it is not well laid out. The players have no links to their stats and no mention of their positions. To go through 463 players one by one would be a pain. I suspect the reason the ECHL shows them like they do is because they have no real claim to them at all.

Many of them are goalies, in fact it is really only the names of goaltenders that stick out of the list to me. Goalies have long been the only players that play below the farm team level because you can only have two on your roster and two on the farm team roster. Many teams have a few more that are in development. This is what the ECHL is good for, but then so is the CHL or the SPHL.

Almost all of the skaters either played only a game or two in the ECHL or only a game or two in the NHL.

As of the start of this season, I could only find a single regular NHL skater than was once a regular in the ECHL and that was Alex Burrows. Kris Barch comes close as he played parts of three seasons in the ECHL. Vancouver's Alex Bolduc is even more borderline as he is not a fulltime NHLer and only spent a minority of two seasons in the ECHL

Skaters like Evgeny Artyukhim, a journeyman NHLer for three seasons, once played six games in the ECHL as a conditioning stint when he was 20. He is now in the KHL because no one in the NHL wanted him this season.

Washington centre Keith Aucion, a borderline NHLer, played one game in the ECHL, he also played 6 games in the CHL

There are a number of players that played in the ECHL in 2004/05 because of the lock out. They could not play in the AHL due to the rules so the ECHL was really their only option to play in North America. Bates Battaglia is an example of this.

There may be a few more out there that I missed that did a Burrows, but they are most a handful

Finally, this Salmon Kings being part of the Vancouver farm system, where is the evidence of this? Currently Vancouver has 35 skaters in development, a number of them have played some games for the Canucks this season. They also have five goalies in development. None of them play for the Salmon Kings

When you play in the WHL (or the OHL or QMJHL) you are playing the highest level of hockey in the world for your age.

Here ends my rant for the day ;-)

#20 Greg

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 10:29 AM

RG Properties needs to look closer to home to solve the problems with arena attendance.

We can argue endlessly about ECHL vs. WHL. As a King Club Season Ticket Holder from season one on, I prefer the ECHL, but that is just my preference. Most of the WHL players would not (and do not) make it even as far as the ECHL, but yes, the very best of them have more chance of ultimate success in the NHL than the average ECHL player. I still prefer pro hockey over high school kids.

But that's not the problem at SoFA. The problem is that it is poorly run.

Marketing and promotion could easily increase attendance. And with the city getting a share of ticket revenue, the real profit is beer, food, merchandise and so forth. And yet they do such a poor job of staffing and planning, that they actually fail to be prepared to take the money from people who are willing to fork over $8 for a beer. Hard to run a business profitably when you leave high-margin sales unconsummated.

The move from a Goldie-led team, to a Goon-led team wasn't driven by the coaching staff, it was a misguided attempt by RG Properties to sell more tickets by increasing the "aggressiveness" of the team (although apparently they didn't think through what losing time after time in the early season playing short-handed half the game would do to attendance).

And the holier-than-though smoking policy (and I'm a non-smoker) led to a direct and easily recognizable loss of about 300 fans per game.

The problem isn't the hockey, it's the arena management.

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