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Police expenditures called into question


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#41 spanky123

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 11:43 AM

Please spending on meals, companies do this all the time. Governments do this all the time. So long as your not going out buying 100 plate dinners it is alright. That is the point of having these cards so that small one time items can be bought at the discretion of the holder. YOu guys can't possibly tell me that none of your bosses ever bought you pizza at work or whatever. I 'll bet a dollar it went the company card. Consider staff morale boosting or whatever it happens and I personally see little wrong with it.


Taking your co-workers out for lunch and then expensing it back to the company is not standard practice. Perhaps the Government does it all the time but it runs afoul of CRA rules unless the employees see it as a taxable benefit. Even the City of Victoria controller stated that is was not City policy to do this.

Doing it once in a while for staff morale is one thing but nearly every second day?

#42 aastra

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:42 PM

Methinks people who don't have much public sector experience would be rather shocked by what goes on.

#43 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:56 PM

Methinks people who don't have much public sector experience would be rather shocked by what goes on.

Well, if that's really true, then give me privatization.

But no, I can't buy the idea that this expense account is in any way shape or form "normal." I don't have G-man's cavalier attitude toward this, nor could I indulge Holden's speculation that it was all part of a master plan to keep a "big city" cop in a "small city" with "big city problems." Under the table is under the table, regardless of where your Main Street is located.
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#44 G-Man

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 04:02 PM

It doesn't sound like these are co-workers it sounds like stakeholder groups. Also if you look at the article it states at the beginning thatit is 91 000 bucks but you read a few lines in they have it down by over 30 000.

This is classic Victoria over reaction. Yeah the private sector is the place to emulate. If this happened in a big corp no one would even find out. I mean all we need to look at at is Nortel or Bre-X in Canada or Enron in the states. Government may spend a few dollars on staff morale but it gets analyzed by countless financial officers and the info is available upon request to anyone in the province.

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#45 Caramia

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 04:26 PM

The TC's reporting is designed to make everyone all indignant. What is the point of putting $91,000 in the headline, if the true number is actually 30 grand less? We don't even find out until later that the figure is not yearly, but rather represents everything charged to the police credit card over the entire course of the guy's career, including the time he spent doubling as city manager (A position that seems like a gauntlet of business lunches). Once you break it down, it isn't actually that much more than any other police chief - the only year we have to compare was 2005 - Battershill charged $18,000 in 2005, Saanich's chief charged $11,769. Considering the highly political nature of policing in Victoria vs Saanich, or Oak Bay, not to mention that Victoria cops work at almost triple the case load, for the same pay, I would expect expenses to be at least double.

This is the kind of thing that I was talking about - if this is all they have on the guy, then we need to take the sticks out of our butts and let the police do their job. However, I have to agree with spanky, there has to be another shoe about to drop!
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#46 spanky123

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 07:10 AM

Whether you agree that the expenses were excessive or not, I think that it is fair to say that they are not so egregious that they woul be the reason the chief was put on leave. I think that the TC simply printed the expenses to flush the chief out and force him to make a comment on the matter (should have saw that one coming Paul if you want to try and play coy with the media).

The chief could probably even explained away his having an external law firm to review the FOI act request so I doubt that that was the sole issue either.

I guess we will all have to wait until the mayor returns from Thailand in a few days to see what the next step will be.

#47 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:06 AM

I found Carolyn Heiman's article in today's paper informative: [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=fa788faa-2130-4a51-af98-d857a96efbbd&k=32034:2ac07]Police chief defends credit-card expenses[/url:2ac07]
Note this bit:

Reached Tuesday in Thailand, Lowe defended Battershill's expenses.

"The nature of expenses have not been an issue with the police board as the chief's expenses are a matter of public information. Paul had numerous breakfast and lunch meetings which he paid for on his expense account. This is appropriate as he was conducting VPD business during those occasions," he wrote in an e-mail.

He added "these kinds of expenses are not defined in any contract, but you use common sense to determine if they are appropriate."

Meanwhile, police board vice-chairman Chris Clement said the board doesn't normally see the chief's detailed expense accounts, although the board approves the police department's budget. Clement said there is no clear policy on expenses, but said it is something the board should consider.

I disagree with Lowe re. the bit I italicized, and I agree with Clement that it's time the board considered formulating a policy. Making it up as you go seems very unprofessional, imo.
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#48 Caramia

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:28 AM

I would be more worried if the police chief was accepting lunches on other people's expense accounts. Has anyone else here ever lived in Dublin, and experienced the level of corruption among the Garda? Basically, they can be had for a pint or a meal, because they are so underpaid. Having seen a system that broken, I think it is more dangerous to not have an expense account for these guys than it is to have one that is too flush. Call me cynical, but if some rich guy is taking my police chief to lunch to talk about something they want to see happen in the city, I'd rather the police chief pay. I don't want the cops owing anyone anything.

(edit: of course I am making a huge generalization about the Garda, based mainly on second hand information, I am sure there are many honest Irish cops.)
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
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#49 G-Man

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:52 AM

Hmm seems weird. There is policy in government. Forget the name of the act but it might be part of the Financial Administration Act.

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#50 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 04:39 PM

Good article by Carolyn Heiman, [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=ec90aa83-5107-4947-a798-dc0f61daf2aa&k=30762:01178]When did five-digit expense accounts become OK?[/url:01178]. Excerpt:

...common sense should prevail when it comes to expense accounts. That includes not counting a lunch as a business expense just because five minutes is spent on work-related issues.

B.C. Comptroller General's office has the following related policy for provincial government employees: "Where justified by management, meals may be provided during meetings where it is essential that business discussions not be interrupted or where it is essential to meet over a meal period, as the issue is important, needs early resolution and no other time is available. Providing meals at business meetings should be an exceptional rather than regular occurrence, and such costs must be reasonable."

Now those are words to live and work by.


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#51 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 05:40 PM

I would be more worried if the police chief was accepting lunches on other people's expense accounts. Has anyone else here ever lived in Dublin, and experienced the level of corruption among the Garda? Basically, they can be had for a pint or a meal, because they are so underpaid. Having seen a system that broken, I think it is more dangerous to not have an expense account for these guys than it is to have one that is too flush. Call me cynical, but if some rich guy is taking my police chief to lunch to talk about something they want to see happen in the city, I'd rather the police chief pay. I don't want the cops owing anyone anything.

(edit: of course I am making a huge generalization about the Garda, based mainly on second hand information, I am sure there are many honest Irish cops.)


O'Donals used to give cops 50% off.
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#52 Caramia

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 05:41 PM

lol
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#53 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 10:21 PM

The T-C is now reporting on pay severances totalling around $600K (actually, more like $580K, but who's quibbling?)... These severance packages were paid out by Victoria police to six individuals, starting in 2002. That's more than $100K per year... Well, that would have paid for more cops downtown, so if that's what the FOI request was about, I can see why the "client" set it in motion...

Article:

[url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=286cc1d8-c80d-4741-83e9-797a94fe40f8&k=85171:2c7a5]Taxpayers hit for $600,000 in police severance deals[/url:2c7a5]
Senior officers said to have had problems with police Chief Paul Battershill
Louise Dickson, Times Colonist
Published: Saturday, November 03, 2007

A turnover in senior officers and staff at the Victoria Police Department has cost Victoria taxpayers more than $600,000 in severance packages since December 2002, the Times Colonist has learned.

Former deputy police chief Geoff Varley and three high-ranking inspectors negotiated severance packages with the Victoria police board, along with the police chief's executive secretary and the head of information technology.

The senior officers, who are said to have had differences with Chief Paul Battershill, were asked by the chief if they would consider leaving.

Details of the severance deals will be released officially as part of a response to a Freedom of Information request, probably next month.

The high-level departures are unusual for local police forces. For instance, Saanich police Sgt. John Price said Friday his department has not negotiated severance pay for senior officers or staff in many years.

According to Victoria police financial comptroller Scott Sievewright, the department doesn't have a specific policy on severance packages - although they are awarded if an employee is dismissed without cause.

"If a severance package is to be negotiated, we look at how close to retirement a person is and the circumstances of why the severance is necessary," Sievewright said yesterday. "There is labour law and civil past practice we look at. The package goes to the police board for approval."

Presumably, Battershill would have had to explain to the board why these officers and staff were not needed. He would have also likely indicated why, in the case of the secretary and the head of IT, no other position in the department could be found for them.

After the provincial government ordered the amalgamation of the Esquimalt and Victoria police forces on Jan. 1, 2003, there was some reorganization within the department, although no jobs were eliminated. Indeed, a new west zone inspector's position was created.

Since the three inspectors left, their positions have been filled although Varley's deputy chief position has not.

A recent Freedom of Information request filed by lawyer David Mulroney on behalf of an unnamed client asked for information about severance deals and employees who were dismissed without cause since 2004.

The requests were initially challenged by law firm Heenan Blaikie on behalf of Battershill, and a letter Mulroney wrote in response was the catalyst for an emergency police board meeting on Oct. 10, after which Battershill was put on administrative leave.

The chief is also being investigated by Police Complaint Commissioner Dirk Ryneveld over allegations of misconduct that Mayor Alan Lowe, the chairman of the police board, has said have to do with personnel issues.

Although Mulroney has received some information he requested, such as Battershill's credit-card expenses, he has been told the severance information will likely be available by mid-December.

Neither Lowe, who is out of the country, nor Esquimalt Mayor Chris Clement, vice-chairman of the police board, could be reached yesterday for comment. A message left yesterday afternoon for Battershill wasn't returned.

Price said no one in his department has received a severance package "in the last three decades that I'm aware of."

"And if someone's been fired, they've been fired with just cause," he said.

Victoria Police Department severance packages were awarded to the following people, all of whom have signed non-disclosure agreements:

--- Susan Sutherland, head of information technology for the department, was dismissed in December 2002. She had worked for the City of Victoria since 1980, before transferring to the police in 1990. Her annual salary was about $60,000. She was awarded an 18-month severance package worth about $90,000.

--- Insp. John Hartley joined the department in June 1978. In 2000, Battershill promoted Hartley to inspector. His last day on the job was Dec. 31, 2002, although he officially retired in October 2003, after negotiating a buyout of nine months' salary worth almost $70,000.

--- Insp. Grant Smith was Esquimalt's deputy chief when the force amalgamated with Victoria on Jan. 1, 2003. Smith was made inspector of the patrol division. Smith's last day of work was July 31, 2005. His official retirement date was July 31, 2006. He received $113,000 plus benefits to stay home for a year.

--- Deputy Chief Geoff Varley worked for the department from 1976. His last day on the job was June 30, 2006, but his contract ran until July 2, 2007. During the year he spent at home, Varley received severance of $70,000, equal to six months' salary.

--- Insp. Phyllis Senay was injured in a shooting incident on Oct. 28, 2005. She has never returned to work. Senay received Workers Compensation until March 25, 2007, then was put back on the Victoria police payroll. She will receive full salary until August 2008, an amount close to $167,000. Her annual salary is $118,000.

--- Joanne Zimmerman was executive secretary to chiefs of the police department for 18 years. Her salary in 2006 was $59,000. She was dismissed in 2007 and received a 25-month severance package, or about $122,000.
ldickson@tc.canwest.com
© Times Colonist 2007


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#54 spanky123

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 05:54 AM

This will be the end of Lowe since he is chair of the Police board and approved everything. Looking at who was involved in the process I suspect that the FOI request and letter had more to do with ending Lowe's career then adding downtown Police officers. Of course Battershill is also now sitting at home collecting pay for nothing.

#55 G-Man

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 07:26 AM

Since there is really no viable alternative to lowe I would be surprised and really that story seems to have no traction in the media so I am guessing it will die quickly.

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#56 Caramia

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 10:58 AM

It is getting more media attention than the systematic police brutality that characterized the Victoria department throughout the 80s and 90s. That's what I find disturbing.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#57 rjag

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 05:44 PM

It is getting more media attention than the systematic police brutality that characterized the Victoria department throughout the 80s and 90s. That's what I find disturbing.


Too true, in fact it seems the only people that are making an issue about this are the media. Most people I've talked to are of the opinion to let the enquiry do its thing and wait till all the facts are in the open.

The TC thing is a total witch hunt IMHO

#58 spanky123

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 09:28 PM

Since there is really no viable alternative to lowe I would be surprised and really that story seems to have no traction in the media so I am guessing it will die quickly.


Wrong my friend. There is a candidate to run against Lowe. The business community didn't let anyone run against Lowe last time since the fear was that the vote would be split and Isitt would become mayor. Lowe was popular with the retired crowd and some small business people.

Look at the people involved and timing here. The news first leaked shortly after Lowe left for 3 weeks overseas where he would not be able to respond. The first Friday the expense report leaked which got full page coverage on the weekend. The second Friday the story about all of the senior staff leaving hit with more full page weekend coverage in the TC. Neither of these stories are the blockbuster however since the Police board was always aware of expenses and the "resignations". You may say that business doesn't vote, but through the media they certainly shape opinion.

Lowe is being portrayed as weak and indecisive. He will return next week and as soon as he starts opening his mouth the shoe will drop and we will find out exactly why Battershill is on leave. The message box will be that business and people living downtown are suffering while hundreds of thousands are wasted by an incompetent mayor who knew what was going on but did nothing.

Lowe will announce that he will not run for re-election which will give the business community plenty of time to promote their new mayor. Heck if business can get reporters and editors fired for writing articles about buying cars from the US or that a 5 year old won't like the gardens, then having the media take down a mayor is nothing.

#59 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 10:17 PM

Since there is really no viable alternative to lowe I would be surprised and really that story seems to have no traction in the media so I am guessing it will die quickly.


Wrong my friend. There is a candidate to run against Lowe. The business community didn't let anyone run against Lowe last time since the fear was that the vote would be split and Isitt would become mayor. Lowe was popular with the retired crowd and some small business people.

Look at the people involved and timing here. The news first leaked shortly after Lowe left for 3 weeks overseas where he would not be able to respond. The first Friday the expense report leaked which got full page coverage on the weekend. The second Friday the story about all of the senior staff leaving hit with more full page weekend coverage in the TC. Neither of these stories are the blockbuster however since the Police board was always aware of expenses and the "resignations". You may say that business doesn't vote, but through the media they certainly shape opinion.

Lowe is being portrayed as weak and indecisive. He will return next week and as soon as he starts opening his mouth the shoe will drop and we will find out exactly why Battershill is on leave. The message box will be that business and people living downtown are suffering while hundreds of thousands are wasted by an incompetent mayor who knew what was going on but did nothing.

Lowe will announce that he will not run for re-election which will give the business community plenty of time to promote their new mayor. Heck if business can get reporters and editors fired for writing articles about buying cars from the US or that a 5 year old won't like the gardens, then having the media take down a mayor is nothing.


I can agree with a bunch of this. But who is the new business-friendly mayor candidate?
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#60 m0nkyman

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 03:56 AM

I can agree with a bunch of this. But who is the new business-friendly mayor candidate?

This is just a Wild Ass Guess®, but I've always thought Matt Mcneill had his eye on a run for office....

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