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Rock Bay - the next master-planned development


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#41 G-Man

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 09:45 AM

No kidding!

With the exception of coming into Vancouver along Hwy 7 / Hastings Street. Every entrance into Downtown is impressive.

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#42 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:40 PM

Page 33:

The buildings will be low profile with urban open space linking the buildings and in turn linking the buildings to the waterfront. This option will include landscaped street setbacks (3-4 m).


ENOUGH with the setbacks!

#43 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:42 PM

And the open spaces on the maps on the preceding pages are enough to make a good Victorian cry.

Take every recommendation in this report and do exactly the opposite and you'd have a home run.

#44 G-Man

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:46 PM

Yeah I agree completely. It is weird I don't remember any public hearings into this. Of course it is only a draft proposal.

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#45 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:50 PM

I'm at a loss as to how the population of downtown could ever reach even a moderately healthy level (nevermind that pie-in-the-sky 30,000) if we're writing off an entire huge section like Rock Bay because residential is "incompatible" with industrial (who says?) and if we're also trying to stall or block outright every medium to high density proposal that comes along...even on Blanshard Street in the heart of downtown.

I feel like Joe Public is screaming for positive change and yet the powers that be are doing everything they can to keep things mired.

#46 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:04 PM

Page 18:

The Burnside Neighbourhood Plan indicates that the Douglas/Government Street area is significantly short of park or open space.


No kidding? Damn, we should stick a park there. Or maybe some open space, with benches. People like open space with benches.

The Burnside Neighbourhood Plan needs a reality check.

#47 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:05 PM

Increase the amount and quality of public open space in Rock Bay.


Folks, who the heck is going to make use of this open space you keep talking about??

Are we seriously suggesting the reason north downtown turns people off is because there aren't pocket parks and places to sit??

WHY WOULD ANYBODY WANT TO SIT THERE?

Good gravy.

#48 G-Man

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:06 PM

They have big guns on council though...

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#49 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:10 PM

The Burnside Neighbourhood Plan indicates that the Douglas/Government Street area is significantly short of park or open space.


What were the criteria for making this determination? Just because a particular district doesn't contain a public lawn or a lousy little square with benches doesn't mean it NEEDS a public lawn or a lousy little square with benches.

They're taking the northern part of downtown and trying to de-downtownify it. It would be much easier and much more sensible to build it up into an appealing extension of downtown proper.

No offense to Burnside, but one Burnside is enough. Why on earth do we need to grow that particular neighbourhood into the heart of downtown? Is it such a shining example to follow?

#50 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:14 PM

I just realized there are repeated and out-of-sequence page numbers in their doc.

#51 Caramia

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 06:27 PM

This would be a good place for working class residential condos and apartments. But I agree with the Rock Bay Rate payers, they are already having noise bylaws and other restrictions tightened because of an avalanche of whining from across the water at the Songhees and Vic West where high end residential tenants who moved in to a working harbour now take offense to the noises and smells of a /gasp working harbour. Blue collar residents wouldn't be as persnickity... one would hope, and there is a derth of housing available for that bracket.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#52 gumgum

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 07:24 PM

Put a "wall" of protective office/ commercial buildings, along the borders of the concrete factory and add res beyond that protected "layer".

#53 Caramia

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 08:02 PM

Yeah, some kind of buffer, although honestly I think housing geared towards working men, or even students would make for a very vibrant and non-complainy neighbourhood. Throw in some art academy, or such thing and it could become one of the best areas of town for locals. Victoria's increasing degrees of plastic affluence over the last couple of decades really bugs me, it would be nice to have an area that felt more real. It seems to me that almost every part of town has become more suitable for tourists and retiries and yuppies and less suitable for tradesmen and young people. It feels like colonization of a sort. Im not sure if anyone on this forum can relate to what I am saying and it is hard to explain, but I have lived here my whole life, and while downtown gets seedier by the year, it also seems more "tame" in a way.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#54 aastra

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 08:59 PM

I think we all know what you're saying. You said it well.

I'd be really happy with a fairly dense mixed-use live/work area that's targeted toward real working Victorians and students rather than the usual suspects.

I suspect the powers that be would feel mighty threatened by such a development, however.

#55 gumgum

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 09:39 PM

Really well put Caramia.
It's unfortunately though that neighbourhoods your describe - for the "blue collar folk" and artists, tend to evolve by mistake, organically rather than it being manufactured by a developer.

#56 Caramia

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 10:14 PM

Yeah, usually at the end of housing stock lifecycle, or before gentrification/renewal.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#57 zoomer

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 10:27 AM

/\ yup, exactly. Then, the area becomes popular again because it's been reengerized, and those same students, artists, lower-middle income folks get booted out and the area is reclaimed by the wealthier classes. Example: Yaletown. Although it started off more as a warehouse district with some housing stock, became a cheap place for the above mentioned to live, the yuppies thought this would be a cool place to live too, and now some would say its lost that vibrancy and is becoming plasticy (is there such a word!?).

Not that there is anything wrong with yuppies, or plastic of course. :)

#58 Caramia

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 11:45 AM

I guess with the way the economy and housing market is in Victoria, we are gentrifying or "revitalising" areas at what seems like a breakneck pace. Victims of success... we see a not so lovely area like Rock Bay or South Burnside or North Park and immediately think... "Oooh what a great place for high end luxury housing." Then the developers market their work in Alberta and wealthy retirees move in. In the meantime, no one worries too much about where the replacements for the light industry or low end blue collar housing is going to come from.

Now in the long run, (and City Builders should always consider the long run) I can see this working, a bunch of high quality housing stock gets added to the city, the wealthy retirees die, the properties get flipped a few times and some of it begins to degrade and eventually trickles down to the lower end of the housing market. Shoal Point is going to make one beautiful slum one day, and an impressive ruin!

But in the short run, part of vibrancy is having those somewhat untamed, non-ideal tenants populating an area. When the buildings I manage were low end they were often rented to the "non ideal" blue collar batchelors, or crazy artists or students. Now, with the investment we've put into the buildings (new paint, new carpets etc etc) and the tight market, I'd lose my job if I looked for that kind of tenant. They are often noisy, and tend to do midnight moves or trash apartments, or be late on rent. Yet I think that the streetscape has suffered for it. While the new breed of tenants may spend more money on the street, they add less character and life to it, and they have a harder time mingling with the seedier side of the street life, a side of Victoria that has been increasingly pushed to Rock Bay.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900), The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891

#59 G-Man

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 03:54 PM

It would be nice if someone put a co-op up in there. They tend to attract a good mix of residents. I think that funding is pretty much non existant now.

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#60 bicycles

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:23 PM

edit: nevermind!

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

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