123 replies to this topic

[aastra]

Amor de cosmos, are you suggesting they think this public space will be necessary because of the art gallery highrise project? If I'm not mistaken, the art gallery concept also included a public space on the lower roof level, so we'd hardly need two public spaces facing each other across the street.

[Galvanized]

^That proposal had an awkward public space and from what I remember having more parking nearby was an issue. If this went forward those two arguments against the art gallery would not be valid.

The poor design of Centennial Square and creating a dead zone in place of a vibrant ferry service I can understand being against but this is opportunity to expand an already existing park. That opportunity doesn't happen very often in an urban environment and to be able to put parking underneath instead of on top champions what a lot of people say on this board. The space may not be used as much now compared to 30 years from now when there is even more density. The city has the other car rental lot on the corner of Humboldt, I rather see something built there instead.

[G-Man]

^ I disagree and agree.

I agree that the U/G parking is a great use of space and a very suitable location for it.

I however disagree that expanding the current park is a necessity now or in 30 years.

First the area is already pretty much built out we will see perhaps another 600 - 1000 people after all current projects are completed in the area but there is sooo much public space that even if all these people were using facilities at the same time you would barley be able to tell.

The thing that makes a great public space is people. We need to push these people into the current spaces. Imagine the current Cridge Park with the grass in the centre removed and perhaps a sculpture or fountain in the centre with benches surrounding it. With the Crystalview and Aria complete and perhaps an addition to the conference centre where the bowling green is (or a new bowling green), Cridge Park for the first time in its existence would be an actual usuable public space. With conference attendees there by day and residents there in the evening and weekends with art gallery patrons and church goers. Increasing the size of the space would dilute this potentially great spot.

And even then I doubt there would be the critical mass to achieve this because there is just too much space near here. I mean St. Ann's is just across the street and that now stretches into Beacon Hill Park and kiddie corner is Thunderbird Park.

Enlarging the park whether with green space or hard surface is just a terrible idea.

[gumgum]

Here's a map I put together quickly of the official and non-official public spaces (in blue) within a short walk of the land in question (in red).

We don't need any more public space than we already have in this part of the city. Put this land to more necessary use!

[amor de cosmos]

Amor de cosmos, are you suggesting they think this public space will be necessary because of the art gallery highrise project? If I'm not mistaken, the art gallery concept also included a public space on the lower roof level, so we'd hardly need two public spaces facing each other across the street.

I didn't say necessary, but the stuff planned for that block bounded by Douglas/Humboldt/Blanshard/Belleville changes everything imho. The plans to move Cycle BC & Budget & the Conference Centre expansion, & now there's that Crystalview plan which is currently being revised by westbank. If the city were just creating the 'plaza' & doing nothing else I would oppose it but with everything else happening closeby I don't really have a problem with it. That lawn bowling place is already part of that Cridge Park anyway. The park isn't getting expanded to create the plaza; the lawn bowling place is just getting converted to the plaza. That block is going to look awesome when it's all done.

[aastra]

Some good discussion here. I really do wonder if the art gallery proposal figures into this somehow.

If this new square is attractive and well integrated with the little park next door (and if the little park gets a tidying up), then I suppose it could work. But I still think it's unnecessary, as per gumgum's illustration. It's also more than a bit frustrating because there's all kinds of stuff in Victoria that needs attention, and yet here we are fixing something that isn't broken.

Methinks even a small commercial building containing a cafe or restaurant would be preferable to a completely empty square (which might end up being very unappealing to people for all we know, simply because the new parkade's entry/exit ramp will be right beside it). I'm also wondering just how much pedestrian traffic that north sidewalk actually gets.

[aastra]

Like so. The semicircle shape represents a coffee shop and/or pub or some such point of interest. I'm still confused about Aria's layout, which means the blue arrows might be way off as far as the potential movement of pedestrians goes, but you get the idea:

[aastra]

If there's nothing of interest in this parkade square, then the potential movement of pedestrians will be something close to nil.

[gumgum]

I walk past Cridge Park, through St Anns, along the semicircular area in front of the Astoria and Belvedere all the time, and the spaces are virtual wastelands apart from the odd homeless person sleeping under a tree. How is adding another public space going to contribute anything to the vibrancy of the area?
And I can't see how these places will be used much more once the Aria and Crystalview is finished.
And adding another underutilized space will serve no purpose!
Add another museum, art gallery, condo tower, shopping district...anything that would attract more more people to the area.

Go for a walk to one of these current public spaces and ask yourself: what's missing from this space? What could be done to the space so it actually serves the purpose it was meant for?
The answer lies not in the space itself, it is what is AROUND it! Put simply, WE NEED MORE PEOPLE! More people living, shopping, sightseeing, etc. Give more people a reason to be closer to these spaces that ALREADY EXIST! There's nothing sadder that an underused, under-appreciated, underutilized space.

[amor de cosmos]

Now I am happy to see the scooter shack go as it aligns with the plans to expand the conference centre and build the over street walkway...

What about an underground walkway? & have rooms & other stuff underground like Pacific Centre in Vancouver? That would be cool. Would anyone go for that here?

[aastra]

How is adding another public space going to contribute anything to the vibrancy of the area?

It won't. In fact, it may seriously detract from the current effort to introduce some vibrancy to the area. But the city seems to have its heart set on a new parkade for the conference centre, and building nothing atop it is much safer politically than building something atop it.

[aastra]

Which reminds me, what's the verdict on the shops on the outside of the conference centre? Are they toast or not toast? I can never remember. I noticed there's a sign on the Crystal Garden about a new pharmacy going in there.

[zoomer]

I agree that an underground walkway is the only way to go. I hate to imagine the eyesore an overhead walkway would be, especially given the typical quality of overhead walkways already in existence in Canada...and I doubt the City of Victoria would spend the necessary money to create an attractive design.

I can't see this park being used at all either, especially as it faces the back service side of the Crystal Gardens. Leave it as is until they can come up with a better idea. I'd hate to see a barren lot replace an attractive bowling green, regardless of how often it is used now.

[zoomer]

Which reminds me, what's the verdict on the shops on the outside of the conference centre? Are they toast or not toast? I can never remember. I noticed there's a sign on the Crystal Garden about a new pharmacy going in there.

I heard there's a People's Drug Store going in there.

[aastra]

Considering we're all really nothing more than stooges for big developers, we sure have worked ourselves into a tizzy over this plan to pave over a bowling green.

[G-Man]

Since we are putting things underground how about building an extra level at the garage and put the bus terminal underthere. Buses could enter down blanshard and then come up and exit out of town along Douglas. No left turns and we get rid of another eyesore and also draw people to the area.

[aastra]

I see one big problem with your idea: it's rather clever.

[G-Man]

Dang I thought I was on to something.

[gumgum]

It won't. In fact, it may seriously detract from the current effort to introduce some vibrancy to the area. But the city seems to have its heart set on a new parkade for the conference centre, and building nothing atop it is much safer politically than building something atop it.

This is the problem. Why is it political suicide to suggest building perhaps a museum, or a rental apartment, but it's perfectly fine to suggest another useless public space?
Victorian need to figure out what's really important here. This public space suggestion should be political suicide!

[gumgum]

Or maybe it's not political suicide to suggest a museum or a rental apartment. Maybe it's just lack of political vision.