124 replies to this topic

[gumgum]

Fair points.
The only problem with the "wait and see what they come up with" as far as expansion is concerned is, what if it isn't respectful of the original design? Then what? Does council find a way somehow to force them to a redesign? How many developments have gone down that road and the end product became the bland, cheap and uninspiring? Of course that process is all theoretical - who knows what the city could pull out of their hat to "encourage" its preservation.
I just think it's best to stick to the "keep it simple" philosophy by not messing with it and opening another store somewhere else. Not that I think anyone should be able to force them to keep things the same. I just hope Rogers has a change of heart.

[Caramia]

Foo Hongs must never change. Not the menu. Not the decor.
Ever.
The end.

[amor de cosmos]

I don't understand Alan Lowe. He doesn't like Gateway Green which is going to replace an ugly old building, but he works for Roger's when their renovations could potentially make them lose their heritage status? Maybe he didn't think the heritage status would be affected.

If the customers won't know the difference I don't think I understand why they would lose their heritage status, but if they will why not open next door instead? I think everyone's right, this is one building Victoria should keep the way it is.

[aastra]

The plans, which will see the size of the store's interior increase to 1,600 square feet from 950 square feet by removing a wall to expand into the store's rear area, had been set to begin yesterday.

I wouldn't be able to renovate a doghouse to save my own life, but I have to think they could move the rear wall and counter back pretty much intact, and then nicely bridge the space in between the two old sections with consistent materials. Is that their intention? I have no idea. And I realize it wouldn't be the old store anymore, no matter how well they did it.

Question: would such a "sensitive" modification be unprecedented in Victoria?



By the way, I got the picture above from www.governmentstreet.ca. Did we all know about that site? I didn't. Interesting slogan: "The Ultimate Urban Experience." I like the refreshing emphasis on "urban," even if it's going a fair bit overboard to claim it's "the ultimate."

I like it but some of the copy is a bit awkward. It reads like a first draft in a few places. And the site as a whole seems unfinished in more than a few places.

[G-Man]

Interesting discussion.

I agree that it might be done right and certainly as you so casually is it unprecedented in Victoria. Well no of course not. I mean no one is concerned (really) with what is going on in the old Imperial Bank building with the new pub because it has already been ruined.

But I don't know... are there any other stores in Victoria that are in the original layout with the same owners or is this the last one?

[aastra]

Aren't you thinking of the old Bank of Commerce at Fort and Government?

I was thinking of the Empress Hotel and St. Ann's Academy when I asked that. If indeed successful and satisfying modifications have been done in the recent past in other buildings, then maybe we don't need to worry about being sticklers for 100% historical preservation in this instance?

Or maybe people are pissed off about the modifications that have been performed in other buildings and I'm just putting my foot in my mouth.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Well, speaking of the "Bard and Banker" pub set to go into the old bank (ex-Xmas store) building at Fort & Government: from what I've heard, Matt MacNeil would like to add a freestanding semi-permanent enclosed structure on the sidewalk as an extension of the food/beverage service. Sort of a glass house. What if Rogers did something similar to expand their retail area, particularly in the summer months when increased business makes the present interior seem like a matchbox?

People are posting/saying,"why don't they move next door," but it's not clear that there's space available next door. But if B&B can put a semi-permanent (for all intents and purposes permanent) structure on the sidewalk, ...why not Rogers?

[G-Man]

Sounds like that might affect the facade.

[Ms. B. Havin]

^ No, it's separated from the building by about 15 feet or so. It won't affect the facade of Bard & Banker, for example (except for views from across the street, I guess, since the structure will block the view of the ground floor a bit). It's totally separate, free-standing, and quite a distance from the building.

[aastra]

Say what? How wide is the sidewalk there? It sounds bizarre.

[Ms. B. Havin]

I know, it sounds weird, but apparently the sidewalks on Gov't St are wide enough to accomodate these structures. FWIW, I'm holding my breath on what it'll actually look like, and how or whether it'll create bottlenecks on the sidewalk. But...? Imagine Sam's Deli, with its attached patio, plus the remaining sidewalk space. Now picture taking that attached patio and moving it over to the roadside edge of the sidewalk, as a separate structure, with the pedestrians moving along the strip of sidewalk that now runs between the building and the structure. It'll be like that.

[Holden West]

It probably wouldn't impede pedestrian activity because the structure would sit between two of those hexagonal concrete tree planters--people don't walk on the curb side of the sidewalk as it's full of furniture--bike racks, benches etc. There's still a couple of metres of sidewalk.

But I'm not sure an outdoor annex would be a solution or if it would actually solve the summer crush.

It doesn't seem like a big deal since this reno could be easily reversible in the future simply by moving the rear wall back to its present location. From what the article said, it seemed like nothing was changing, just made larger. The only difference will be the proportions and the addition of new material.

[G-Man]

What kind of tax are we charging these businesses to take away public property?

[Ms. B. Havin]

^ They do pay taxes & fees -- Irish Times Pub, for example, takes a chunk off the Bastion Square passageway with its patio, and pays for that. I don't know how much, though, but the city does get income from these schemes.

Whether enough or not I don't know.

[gumgum]

People are posting/saying,"why don't they move next door," but it's not clear that there's space available next door. But if B&B can put a semi-permanent (for all intents and purposes permanent) structure on the sidewalk, ...why not Rogers?

It doesn't have to be next door. It could be anywhere within the tourist area. Opening another location would be the simplest and cheapest solution.

[Ms. B. Havin]

It doesn't have to be next door. It could be anywhere within the tourist area. Opening another location would be the simplest and cheapest solution.

That is an option, and I'm not inside their heads either, but maybe they feel that opening another store downtown would dilute their brand, whereas enlarging the existing space would concentrate it?

Opening many outlets hasn't diluted Starbucks' brand -- in fact, it has intensified it. But it's a different product, it's global, etc. A Swatch store can open many outlets -- the interchangeability of swatches and coffee makes it possible to put outlets everywhere.

Does that work for handmade products, though? Rogers might be less hand-made than Chocolatier Victoria, but that is part of its image/ brand, isn't it?

Businesses that have outlets celebrate the factory-made or assembly line or machine-like aspects of their products (even Lululemon, which just hired away another Starbucks exec, does this: yoga as "yoke," as universal discipline that can be practiced anywhere anytime, and Lululemon makes the "uniforms" for it).

Handcrafted products might suffer with outlets.

Murchies didn't properly make that leap from "handicraft" store, art of steeping tea, etc. etc. to "outlet" (as Starbucks did).

Sorry, just thinking off the top of my head here. But Rogers is in a not so easy position, imo.

[Caramia]

Yeah, you have to have some sympathy for the position Rogers is in. It is a global product though - known internationally even! I once dated a boy from a small town in Iowa, although he'd never been to Canada, he had been in the habit of sending his friends Rogers Chocolates for years. Weird eh?

Regarding the glass addition, I am not sure if that would work for a retail outlet - I can see it being a great seating area, if that is what they are looking for though, but for selling product, I can't imagine how that would go.

As far as businesses paying to spill out onto the sidewalk, I hope that if they are charged it is affordable to them! IMO that should be encouraged in every way possible. Look at Chinatown, how lively and vital it feels! The streets are awesome when there is a transition between the indoor and outdoor space, it makes everything more... vibrant!

[Baro]

So long as they add vibrancy and activity, I'd love to see more little stalls and vendors on our streets, charged a reasonable fair fee that even local crafters can afford, not just high-sales things like tacky t-shirt vendors. I don't care if they're hawking hotdogs or hand made crafts, they give off such a lively vibe.

I'd also love to see such vendors in beacon hill park, sometimes I get so hungry and thirsty there. The park its self could have a couple little stalls with proffits going towards the park. It's so wierd seeing a major city park without ANY services inside, but I guess if people could buy basic sustenance in the park it would become a corporate police state in a weekend. Actually, fixing up the checker house into a cool little park-run cafe with bathrooms and such would be so awesome.

[amor de cosmos]

& let's not forget Centennial Square!

[Holden West]

If this reno had happened in 1909 or even 1930 it would be a non-issue.

uww.tripadvisor.sol (2108 c.e. edition):

...and don't miss the Rogers' Chocolates store on Government St. near the View St. Transit-Pod stop. For nearly 200 years this outlet has been lovingly cared for and the rear-most portion of the store (designed by former Victoria Mayor/architect/MP Alan Lowe) has recently been designated as a National Historic Site, making a handsome complement to the original front area. These handmade chocolates have been a favourite as far away as the reception dock at the Jupiter Space Station for over ten years.