Jump to content

      



























Photo

E&N Railway (VIA Rail) discussion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1261 replies to this topic

#41 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,173 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 10:10 AM

And BTW, rail isn't the future, it's desperately holding onto the past.


So modern bullet trains and high-speed rail corridors that can transport passengers faster than aircraft (no traveling to airports, checking in, waiting to take-off, then repeating the process all over again) are accidental throwbacks to the steam engine?

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#42 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:51 AM

Magnetic levitation is straight out of the stone age.

#43 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:55 AM

I agree with Nominalis that the jump from ~$30 million to ~$100 million is enough to cast this whole idea in a new (very negative) light.

$100 million would pay for a big chunk of a brand new LRT system.

#44 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,173 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:00 PM

$100 million would pay for a big chunk of a brand new LRT system.


Perhaps the chunk between downtown and T&C. But not much else.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#45 G-Man

G-Man

    Senior Case Officer

  • Moderator
  • 13,800 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:25 PM

But 100 million to upgrade a railroad from Victoria to Coutenay and Port Alberni seems like a deal to me. I believe the former figure was just to upgrade the southern portion for commuter rail.

#46 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:33 PM

Perhaps the chunk between downtown and T&C. But not much else.


Is that not the most important chunk? That's just a bit longer than Tacoma's LRT line.

But 100 million to upgrade a railroad from Victoria to Coutenay and Port Alberni seems like a deal to me.


Once again I was mistaken. I thought this $100 million was just for upgrading the tracks inside Greater Victoria. If it's for the entire railroad then it's not such a big number after all.

#47 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,173 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:49 PM

Seattle/Tacoma is the last place we should be looking to for inspiration on transit. Heck, Edmonton has a better LRT system than the entire Puget Sound combined.

The Douglas chunk is important, sure, but it's nothing without the remaining 15 kilometers out west. I couldn't imagine spending $100 million on a line from downtown to T&C would be money well spent.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#48 Bernard

Bernard
  • Member
  • 5,056 posts
  • LocationVictoria BC

Posted 05 March 2008 - 04:27 PM

I am curious, where do they think the freight will come from? Rail is a good at moving large volume commodity products - we have very little of that left on the island. Pulp from Port Alberni is one of the few things I can think of.

Containers do not strike me as an option either. The distances on the island make no economic sense to put a container on a train. You add an extra handling of the container because you would have to unload the container from the train to a truck to get its final destination. Given that most of the people on the island live south of the Malahat, where would you even unload the containers?

If someone opens a copper mine or a much bigger coal mine than Quinsam, then there is a market for a rail service to the commodity to a harbour for shipping.

Here in Victoria we no access between the tracks and the harbour area - we have made our habour basically non functional.

Most shortline railways in Canada are there because of two reasons, they either serve a single large commodity source (iron ore in Labradour) or they are branches off of the major lines (the line to Churchill). The E and N is not connected to the rest of the North American rail network and it is not serving any major commodity. It really has no purpose and putting money into it makes no economic sense.

The $100 000 000 price tag is also a vast lowballing. The proposed work, let alone what would really be needed such as getting rid of level crossings and offering more twin tracking, is unlikely to be done for much less than $200 000 000 based on best research into quasi public sector capital cost project over runs.

#49 G-Man

G-Man

    Senior Case Officer

  • Moderator
  • 13,800 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 04:32 PM

^Actually it is connected to the rest of North America through a train ferry in Nanaimo.

#50 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 06:12 PM

The Douglas chunk is important, sure, but it's nothing without the remaining 15 kilometers out west.


Say what? I feel like we're all nodding at one another on this thread and yet everybody is saying something different. Urban LRT in Victoria is all about Douglas Street, yes?

I think Tacoma's LRT is the first place Victoria should be looking for inspiration in this regard. Forget whatever European city happens to be in fashion on any particular day; they've made urban LRT work right next door!

I'm all for a short urban LRT line because I have no doubt it would make Victoria's core a quieter, cleaner place and also get the ball rolling on the inevitable evolution of Douglas Street.

#51 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,173 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 06:39 PM

Urban LRT has its place but not along Douglas. Before we spend a nickel taking any steps along that corridor BCT should invest in high-capacity transit along Fort and Hillside. The idea that Douglas is somehow in need of a high-capacity public transit service is lost on me, it really is.

If we want to provide high-capacity transit to Langford then we already have the E&N and there's absolutely no need whatsoever to build an expensive alternative route.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#52 UrbanRail

UrbanRail
  • Member
  • 2,114 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 05 March 2008 - 06:50 PM

Actually thats 104million split between 3 levels of government. The feds and munipicalities are already on board, its the liberals that are holding back. The ICF also welcomes private investments as well.

here is the business plan.

http://www.ourcorrid...or_casebook.pdf

please read page 17 for freight possibilities.

#53 UrbanRail

UrbanRail
  • Member
  • 2,114 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 05 March 2008 - 06:52 PM

Say what? I feel like we're all nodding at one another on this thread and yet everybody is saying something different. Urban LRT in Victoria is all about Douglas Street, yes?

I think Tacoma's LRT is the first place Victoria should be looking for inspiration in this regard. Forget whatever European city happens to be in fashion on any particular day; they've made urban LRT work right next door!

I'm all for a short urban LRT line because I have no doubt it would make Victoria's core a quieter, cleaner place and also get the ball rolling on the inevitable evolution of Douglas Street.



I would acutally look at Portland, with its commuter rail, LRT and modern Streetcar network.

#54 UrbanRail

UrbanRail
  • Member
  • 2,114 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 05 March 2008 - 07:01 PM

I am curious, where do they think the freight will come from? Rail is a good at moving large volume commodity products - we have very little of that left on the island. Pulp from Port Alberni is one of the few things I can think of.


refer to the pdf of the business plan i posted.

Containers do not strike me as an option either. The distances on the island make no economic sense to put a container on a train. You add an extra handling of the container because you would have to unload the container from the train to a truck to get its final destination. Given that most of the people on the island live south of the Malahat, where would you even unload the containers?


Easy, Langford and Esquimalt harbour.

If someone opens a copper mine or a much bigger coal mine than Quinsam, then there is a market for a rail service to the commodity to a harbour for shipping.

thats being looked at

Here in Victoria we no access between the tracks and the harbour area - we have made our habour basically non functional.


again esquimalt harbour is a good location

....The E and N is not connected to the rest of the North American rail network and it is not serving any major commodity. It really has no purpose and putting money into it makes no economic sense.


The E&N is connected by a ferry between Nanaimo and Tilbury in Richmond. The SRY is planning to build an $11million ferry terminal on Annacis Island to help with the island shipments. The E&N has a purpose, and putting money in it makes a lot of sense, putting money into just more buses and highways does not.

The $100 000 000 price tag is also a vast lowballing. The proposed work, let alone what would really be needed such as getting rid of level crossings and offering more twin tracking, is unlikely to be done for much less than $200 000 000 based on best research into quasi public sector capital cost project over runs.


Still money well spent. :)

#55 davek

davek
  • Member
  • 670 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 07:27 PM

So modern bullet trains and high-speed rail corridors that can transport passengers faster than aircraft (no traveling to airports, checking in, waiting to take-off, then repeating the process all over again) are accidental throwbacks to the steam engine?


Nominalis isn't alone with his opinion. Economist William T. Bogart, author of"Don't Call It Sprawl: Metropolitan Structure in the Twenty-First Century (Cambridge University Press), says mass transit is a historical anomoly;

Essentially, people are willing to trade off the inconvenience of mass transit only if there's enough speed in return. There was a very short period of time when technologically that was feasible, and it dated from the late 1800s until about 1930. Mass transit, and particularly large-scale fixed-rail transit, really only makes sense where you have the type of highly dense employment and highly dense residences that are very rare in the United States. So building some of these light rail lines from place to place -- it takes too long to build them, not as many people ride them as were projected to ride them, and it's much more expensive and less effective than almost anything else that you could do.

More interesting thoughts from Dr. Bogart here.

#56 G-Man

G-Man

    Senior Case Officer

  • Moderator
  • 13,800 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 08:33 PM

Guess it is good we don't live in the US

#57 renthefinn

renthefinn
  • Member
  • 571 posts

Posted 05 March 2008 - 08:48 PM

Funny, I was under the opinion that most new LRT systems constructed in the US in the last 20 years have exceeded ridership projections.

#58 UrbanRail

UrbanRail
  • Member
  • 2,114 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 05 March 2008 - 08:50 PM

Funny, I was under the opinion that most new LRT systems constructed in the US in the last 20 years have exceeded ridership projections.


Majority have

#59 davek

davek
  • Member
  • 670 posts

Posted 06 March 2008 - 06:50 AM

Majority have


I'd be grateful for a citation, if you can provide on.

#60 G-Man

G-Man

    Senior Case Officer

  • Moderator
  • 13,800 posts

Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:00 AM

Doesn't back up the claim exactly but does explain part of it

http://www.lightrail...rt_2006-05a.htm

Anyways this discussion is on the whole E&N line and actually has nothing to do with LRT.

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users