42 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

Please use this thread to discuss the issue of sewage treatment in Victoria and how it pertains to the elections.

[Sue Woods]

Instead of a large, traditional and expensive treatment plant, I think we might consider 3 or 4 small pilots projects to see how we can use waste as a resource. Many cities (in Canada, USA, Europe) recover waste to power buildings and run buses on methane. This is leading edge stuff and exciting.

I also agree with current wisdom to reduce the amount of stormwater during heavy rains by studying green roofs, rain barrels and rain gardens.

Cheers, Sue
www.susanwoodsforvictoria.com

[Barra]

Victoria is in a unique position in that the sewage treatment currently available in the Strait of Juan de Fuca is much more effective than any land based treatment could ever be. Currently it is diluted through a 200 foot vertical rise, and dispersed by the flushing action of the Fraser River discharging to the ocean. Land based treatment dilutes sewage to one part per hundred and then discharges to streams, rivers or ocean. The treatment we have now dilutes to one part per thousand, then continues to dilute further through currents and tidal actions.
The $1+billion dollars for treatment could be more usefully spent on drug treatment, housing, and medical services.

[yodsaker]

The science so far is inconclusive though it does seem to be of the opinion that the strait takes care of it effectively, which is my opinion as well. Sewage is mostly water in composition, organic waste that breaks down pretty easily.
It does seem that a fancy treatment plant(s) is close to being a done deal, rammed through because it has generated enough politically correct buzz. The estimates are in the billion-dollar range and we all know how these estimates have a way of doubling by completion.
But I don't know how said treatment plant would take care of industrial/ household chemicals/liquids which are way more harmful than poop IMO.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Instead of a large, traditional and expensive treatment plant, I think we might consider 3 or 4 small pilots projects to see how we can use waste as a resource. Many cities (in Canada, USA, Europe) recover waste to power buildings and run buses on methane. This is leading edge stuff and exciting.

I'm with you on this one. I know many people on this forum think our "natural" system (pumping it into the ocean) is just fine, but I'm one of those who favour treatment -- albeit the sort that extracts resource from "waste." In nature, there's no such thing as waste: it's a system of closed loops. Lots to learn from there, imo.

[mat]

I agree with the decentralization approach and would much rather see 4-5 smaller plants, each with an over capacity built in to consider future development, and to take any extra load if one unit goes down.

We should also be including heat extraction, grey water retainment for irrigation and possibly using extracted waste for fertilizer - plenty of examples in Europe and Asia.

I am a bit confused about last weeks CRD meeting which essentially postponed any consideration on direction for sewage treatment.

[Sue Woods]

I never meant to say that I believe we need a treatment plant. I happen to agree with many scientests and residents who think we don't. But is it is a mute point either way because we are being forced into having one by the Province.

I agree we could better use those funds for more pressing needs - but since we are stuck with it we should at least incoporate green techology for economic and environmental reasons. And to ensure the operation remains in the public domain.

Cheers, Sue

[jklymak]

The science so far is inconclusive though it does seem to be of the opinion that the strait takes care of it effectively, which is my opinion as well.

I actually think the science is pretty conclusive. Are there any scientists who actually think there is any harm in dumping sewage in the Strait? I don't know any. Apart from a couple of dozen kiteboarders, this is pretty much a science question, so why aren't the scientists being listened to?

There are certainly bad substances that should not be put in the drain, but that would be the case for secondary treatment as well. If we spent $1 billion on rapid transit, for instance, the benefit to the environment would be much more immediate.

[jklymak]

^^ cross post. I agree that if we are stuck with it an innovative design would be better than a bad one.

However, is it a moot point?

[Sue Woods]

I think the opinion is equally split on whether we need sewage treatment or not - with very good points being made for both sides of the coin.

Unfortunately the adjeda has been moved forward by the province and all we can do now is manage it for our own best interests.

Too bad the province won't step into the debate about amalgamation. Thats a more important discussion for these times in my view.

Cheers Sue

[Sue Woods]

Perhaps it is not a mute point. I am coming from the understanding that the decison has been made, funds have been allocated, and the decison going forward is about where and how.

But please fill me in if I have misunderstood how far along the process is.

Sue

[yodsaker]

Perhaps it is not a mute point. I am coming from the understanding that the decison has been made, funds have been allocated, and the decison going forward is about where and how.

But please fill me in if I have misunderstood how far along the process is.

Sue

Mute point? "Moot" is the word. Nice to know you aren't a lawyer!
Funds have been allocated means IMO that the province will issue taxpayers with an IOU for a project that is iffy. Politicians will need to be frank about how much property tax bills are going to increase to pay for this.

[Ms. B. Havin]

While I understand where people are coming from when they say, "but this [flushing waste into the Juan de Fuca Strait] has served us well for decades," I don't agree that it will serve us well going forward. And that's why I support a game-changing strategy (i.e., treatment).

(And, ps, I'm w/ jklymak, the science is more conclusive than inconclusive.)

Here's how I'm looking at this. Say you have a l'il ole house on a nice l'il ole street. Your wiring is kinda wonky, you only have ...um, I'm not an electrician, but say it's 75amps going in/ coming out. You don't have any incentive, however, to upgrade your infrastructure -- you're not going to get an electrician to put in a box to handle 200 amps in your sweet l'il ole house, 'cause you can't afford it.

But next door people are building houses that have that sort of panel -- they're sucking juice from the grid, lickety-split no problem, and have electric hot water heaters, electric heaters, lights, etc. (Those neighbours would be the WestComms and Saanich areas that have secondary treatment.)

Your little house's puny infrastructure means that if you want more heat in winter or lots of hot water for that growing family of yours, you put in a coal- or wood-fired heater to keep up. Your neighbours start to complain about the dirty air that comes from your chimneys from all that coal/ wood you're burning to get more heat or hot water -- especially now that you've bumped out your house and added floors to keep up with your growing population , er... extended family.

Your neighbours, those smug bastards, are totally into the grid, so they're happy getting their stuff (energy) the conventional way ...and meanwhile they're pointing fingers at you for polluting their space.

But then, guess what? These nifty new technologies come along. You're able (somehow -- the big "somehow") to put solar panels on your roof and heat exchanger thingies on your property, and before you know it, you're producing a surplus of energy ... that you sell back to your neighbours.

With that money, you're also suddenly able to upgrade your wiring (i.e., your infrastructure) to 400 amps (thus outpacing your neighbours). (Think of Victoria's aged sewage infrastructure...)

You've just leapfrogged over the old guard, and you have stuff to sell back to the grid, which means you can improve your infrastructure, too. Yippee!

Ok, in this scenario, we have no idea how you got the money to put that leap-frogging technology into your space, but you see how investing in infrastructure pays off, right? And how it in turn means you can invest in future infrastructure? (The idea that you can finally upgrade from a 75 to a 400 amp panel... Or that the city of Victoria could upgrade its aged sewage pipes, incapable of handling what's being pushed at them...)

Look, basically it's this: the infrastructure as it exists can't even handle the increased population in Victoria's downtown (see the threads on this board that discuss how new developments in Harris Green are being asked to install black water holding tanks that will be flushed at nighttime because the infrastructure can't handle the increased flushes during daytime), and yet we want to grow the core's population. With that growth, we have to ask ourselves if the infrastructure can't handle the ...er, flood, then why should we believe that the Strait can handle the increase?

And if the infrastructure can't handle it, then why wouldn't we leap-frog over the old technology and figure out that we can use this opportunity to put something truly innovative in place? Ie.,the kind of resource-recovery treatment that other places are using? IOW, why not be that l'il ole house with its coal/ wood fired energy source and lousy 75 amp panel, which then gets a freakin' clue and goes forward with 21st century technologies that allow it to leapfrog over everyone else?

For me, that's the no-brainer aspect of this whole thing.

Invest in infrastructure. Sewage treatment done right is an investment in infrastructure, just like upgrading your electrical panel is. That's all.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ I've seen studies that say we could dump (no pun intended) three times what we do now, out the current pipes, and we'd still be OK.

Three times our population is at least 100 years away.

[G-Man]

^ And there are studies saying we should not be putting anything in the oceans. I say build the plants.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ And there are studies saying we should not be putting anything in the oceans. I say build the plants.

You do realize that after secondary or thirdary (sp?) treatment or whatever, it does then go into the ocean, right? All that water, 99.8% or more of the waste stream, has to go somewhere.

[jklymak]

For me, that's the no-brainer aspect of this whole thing.

Invest in infrastructure. Sewage treatment done right is an investment in infrastructure, just like upgrading your electrical panel is. That's all.

OK, I'd buy that we could start building small secondary plants that do good things like recover some heat and/or energy before letting the stuff go. As you say, its wasteful if there is still value in the sewage.

I just object to spending a lot of money on a system that harms the environment more than it helps it.

[mat]

1: Total sewage recovery programs do exist (they are called 'flood fields') and been used for centuries - used now in South Korea, marsh lands in Iraq and Iran, being tested in Germany...basic idea is to utilize reed beds with a certain high acidic soil to break down sewage into an absorbable, and ecologically usable, product. However, for the CRD we would need most of Saanich inlet to accomplish that.

2: Sorry ladies - hormones in waste water is likely the most problematic. Very recent studies from the Great Lakes are showing that even in parts per Billion, our waste water that has HRT and contraceptive residue is radically altering male fish physiology and is considered to be a factor in declining fish populations. Salmon hatchlings in the Adam's lake region are down to an all time low, yet the amount of adult salmon up to spawn last year was high. The Great Lakes study does appear to show is does not matter the volume of water, if fish pass through, there is an impact.

3: Waste treatment does not have to be a 'tax cost, just to be environmental' - out of the treatment plants we can create hot water for buildings, we can recycle grey water for on-demand irrigation for farms and municipal planting, and we can even use treatment plants as a carbon offset.

[Caramia]

Just as a reminder guys, this part of the forum is intended to showcase candidate positions on the topic in a way that voters can eventually access them fairly easily. As the discussion progresses your thoughts may be moved to the general sewage thread, leaving only direct questions to candidates on this thread.

[VicHockeyFan]

Just as a reminder guys, this part of the forum is intended to showcase candidate positions on the topic in a way that voters can eventually access them fairly easily. As the discussion progresses your thoughts may be moved to the general sewage thread, leaving only direct questions to candidates on this thread.

Whoops. I think most of us that just check NEW POSTS sometimes forget to check the thread category.