114 replies to this topic

[Ms. B. Havin]

The examples people always site never started from the asinine set-up we have in the CRD. No one wants to turn the lower half of the island into a single mega-city.

We want some respect of the fact that congruent and logical municpal areas are created. The argument that Halifax or Toronto didn't realize the cost benefit of amalgamation is of no consequence when really we just need Victoria, Saanich, Oak Bay and Esquimalt to merge. In most places this would be the small city municpality.

Right on.

[VicHockeyFan]

....the Victoria and Oak Bay boundary actually bisects a number of properties on the border and even bisects houses.

Are you sure? Can someone throw up a map?

[G-Man]

Well I'll be it does!

http://www.victoria....s_map_vctra.pdf

[VicHockeyFan]

Are you sure? Can someone throw up a map?

I did not know that! Must make for interesting property tax situation for those homes. Surely they have decided some will be in Vic, some in OB for tax purposes, no?

[mat]

There seem to be a number of threads regarding amalgamation - police being an often posted one. As this will be an issue for the upcoming election, and likely for the next few decades would it not be a good idea to merge all these topics into one main thread?

The TC article was very interesting but I agree with others that cost savings can be a red herring. What is more important is representation, accountability and consistency in approach and law. Right now we have too many variables in municipal by-laws which confuse people.

[Bernard]

The split properties get two property tax notices with an estimate split between the two municipalities.

There are all manner of issues of property law, zoning and bylaws that come into question with these properties.

The properties are single legal titles - how can you have two different zoning bylaws on one legal parcel?

[G-Man]

So you could build a house that could be half 4 storeys and half 2 storeys* so as to accomodate both zonings. That could be interesting.

*example only. I know nothing of the types of zones involved.

[VicHockeyFan]

The properties are single legal titles - how can you have two different zoning bylaws on one legal parcel?

Exactly, it could never happen. Just like you could never have one level of government saying "remove your offensive tobacco sign" and another level saying "don't dare remove your historic tobacco sign". Pure fantasy.

[Galvanized]

What is more important is representation, accountability and consistency in approach and law. Right now we have too many variables in municipal by-laws which confuse people.

And MOST importantly is proper cohesive planning for the future!

[mat]

And MOST importantly is proper cohesive planning for the future!

Absolutely!!! The issues that most concern myself and my family would be better served with a politically amalgamated council (Victoria, Oak Bay, Saanich and Esquimalt). They are - in no particular order - sewage, education, policing and transportation.

[G-Man]

^ Word

[Nparker]

OK we REALLY need to get this issue onto the radar of the local candidates.

[Bernard]

After seeing one of these properties appealed to the property assessment review panel - I sat on the one for residential properties in the greater Victoria area for a number of years - I saw that there are some very serious possible legal issues that come with these properties.

Setbacks - where do you measure to? Victoria has no jurisdiction over Oak Bay. What about a part of property that is one muni but has no road access in that one - the building bylaws get interesting.

825 Foul Bay Road is one of the ones where the boundary runs through the house.

Property assessments are based on what a property can get on the open market - but each part of these legal titles has a separate property assessment roll number, they are treated as separate legal titles for the purposes of assessments. Since you can not sell one without the other, neither one has a market value that can be fairly assessed.

What happens if Victoria changes a property on Foul Bay road to commercial but Oak Bay does not?

There are also some other properties in Greater Victoria with these sort of issues - some between Victoria and Saanich, there is at least one commercial property shared between Esquimalt and Victoria. Uvic is shared between Oak Bay and Saanich - four buildings are split between the two.

This is one of the dumbest implications of our balkanized region

[G-Man]

Wow I had always been for amalgamation but given this insanity how can anyone be for the current model?

[davek]

Wow I had always been for amalgamation but given this insanity how can anyone be for the current model?

One can be, and should be, opposed to both.

[mat]

One can be, and should be, opposed to both.

What I gather is that you are opposed to amalgamation, and equally opposed to the current model - is there a viable alternative (other than federalization?)

[davek]

What I gather is that you are opposed to amalgamation, and equally opposed to the current model

That's correct.

... is there a viable alternative (other than federalization?)

I think there is, mostly involving deregulation and privatization, but G-Man started this thread to discuss politicians' views on amalgamation, and I don't want to derail his topic. If you are sincerely interested, you can PM me, or review my other posts. They will give you a good idea where I stand.

[yodsaker]

Years ago there were houses in Westmount and Montreal as outlined above.
The owners simply paid taxes to both on a pro-rata basis according to sq. feet.

...media will be able to better pay attention to what is going on at the council level.
There should not be any difficulty doing this under the present setup. The meetings are scheduled, notice is given and they are public. I'm sure Jimmy Olsen could manage to pay attention so surely even our local newshounds could although they are somewhat handicapped by lack of energy and curiosity.

[Bernard]

That is what happens here, sort of. The law in BC creates two separate assessment roll numbers for the property. When the law was written, I am of the opinion that no one thought of this situation as the way the assessment is set does not work fit with these properties, there is a reasonable case to be argued that the assessments should be very, very low on these properties.

That result is of course absurd, but based on how the law is at the moment, that is the outcome.

The bigger issue for me is the stupidly of have two local governments for a single legal title. It makes no sense at all.

Also, do these people get to vote twice as their principal residence is in both municipalities?

[Nparker]

The latest from Carolyn Heiman....


Multiple municipalities create a huge burden for taxpayers

Carolyn Heiman, Times-Colonist

Published: Wednesday, July 23, 2008

Couldn't reach the chief executive officer of the municipality of Mission yesterday to see if he'd like to be paid three times more than his $154,277 salary. Chances are he wouldn't turn it down, and who wouldn't.

Mission -- with 37,000 folks -- has about the same population as Central Saanich, Sidney and North Saanich combined yet each has their own council and slate of senior officers to run the ships.

The three Peninsula municipalities pay their chief administrative officers a range that is in keeping with the role but collectively adds up to $453,809. This makes the $570,897 salary paid to B.C. Hydro boss Bob Elton almost seem like a bargain. He keeps the lights on in the entire province -- or at least most of the time.

Herein lies a small part of the difficulty in making changes to the fragmented way the region is governed. Many ordinary citizens say they are stupefied when trying to comprehend the rationale of keeping 13 municipalities and their 91 politicians. But those in charge -- from the top executive officers down to the elected officials -- like it that way. And who can blame them? They do have a sizable self interest in keeping things the way they are.

Small wonder the amalgamation word never crosses their lips. Instead "integration" is the new watchword. Unlike amalgamation, integration still keeps the top layer of governance and administration in place.

Last week, we looked at some costs coming out of Victoria, Oak Bay, Esquimalt and Saanich. In some areas, those costs exceed amounts paid at major metropolitan cities such as Toronto and New York although the combined population of the four is more like Saskatoon.

A few letter writers rose up, worried that any merger would "equal character assassination" for communities. That kind of fearmongering misses that the neighbourhoods of Burnside, Rockland and James Bay -- all distinct and yet all within the boundaries of Victoria -- are more different from each other than Colwood and Langford. Lines on a map do not create neighbourhoods.
Those few writers were overshadowed by many more who concur that it is time for change. If one city incorporating all 13 municipalities seems a stretch, an argument can be made to go baby steps in the process and reduce the number of municipalities to three.

Which brings us back to the Peninsula communities where taxpayers remunerate the three councils a total of $262,842. The sums paid to council members aren't large but also include a one-third tax-free portion that makes them less transparent to the public. The three Peninsula fire chiefs collectively earn $282,144, a sum that could be used in more effective ways even if devoted to firefighting in the area.

There are six salaries that exceed $100,000 and the North Saanich administrator tops the list at $154,809.

Still to come: Spending in View Royal, Colwood, Langford, Highlands, Metchosin and Sooke.