85 replies to this topic

[Ms. B. Havin]

But why be "/bitter"?

Just because they are selling it now, doesn't mean it never meant anything to anyone, or that some people don't see it and think... "home."

What individuals see and think -- it's like sex: consenting adults, and all that. What's "critique-able" (insofar as that's a word) is any attempt to hypostasize a feeling (of "home" or whatever) into a thing. I don't even mind so much if someone tries to sell things (hey, gotta make a living and all that), but I guess I mind about selling visions and feelings as though they were adequate substitutes.

But this is a philosophical discussion.

Give me specifics and details, concrete specifics.

Specifically, it was suggested that Chinatown is dirty and smells. (I can't believe I just succumbed to passive voice -- yuck, must wash mouth out with soap now!)

I suggested Chinatown does not smell and is not dirty.

[Zimquats]

What about the fact that China town has more butts in the gutter than any other part of downtown.




(I actually have no idea if this is true or not, I'm just trying to dumb this conversation down to a level that people without multiple art history, anthropology, physcology, and sociology degrees can at least understand it )

[G-Man]

I am not sure Ms. B where the idea you have of gritty city comes from.

That said not sure where mine come either.

Is Chinatown dirty YES. It is compared with almost any other area downtown it is. Mostly because it is always bustling with people and there are grocers on the street. This is a good thing.

Does it smell? YES it smells stronger than any other area in town. This is a good thing.

I hate disinfected cities. Give me dirt give me people of all incomes, including homeless, give me urban chaos.

Shiny clean is usually the sign of a neurosis.

[Caramia]

/bitter is a snarling backward glance at the way that the territory of my youth became trendy due to that very same "grittiness" from the Consumer Lexicon, and shortly afterwards got renovated (keeping the facades where possible, of course, along with many other symbolic markers) and priced way beyond the reach of any of the previous denizens, who then became the subject of committees of well meaning colonists whose topic of conversation is intermittently "why should we tolerate these people around our neighbourhood" and "How can we help these people whose homes and lives seem to inexplicably have been destroyed"

Someday in person I can tell you about how False Creek used to be. But that isn't a conversation for the forums. And yeah Vancouver's Chinatown is beautifully dirty and it smells like a street corner in Shanghai. God bless it I hope it does forever.

[Ms. B. Havin]

I am not sure Ms. B where the idea you have of gritty city comes from.

That said not sure where mine come either.

Is Chinatown dirty YES. It is compared with almost any other area downtown it is. Mostly because it is always bustling with people and there are grocers on the street. This is a good thing.

Does it smell? YES it smells stronger than any other area in town. This is a good thing.

I hate disinfected cities. Give me dirt give me people of all incomes, including homeless, give me urban chaos.

Shiny clean is usually the sign of a neurosis.

Haha, well let me push the Devil's Advocate button a few more times here... (And by the way, people and lettuce (or bok choi) leaves on the street isn't "dirt," in my book, and smells aren't, either... but let's leave that for now...)

But back to my Devil's Advocate thing: you write that you hate "disinfected" cities (whatever that is -- are they even possible?), and ask to be given dirt, homeless people, and "urban chaos," adding that "shiny clean is usually the sign of a neurosis."

So, playing the DA, how about we substitute:

Give me quaintness, give me architecture with a human scale, including low-rises, give me 'charme.'

Tall buildings are usually the sign of massive developers' greed.

What I'm trying to ask (with this admittedly clumsy substitution) is how come your gritty is authentic and their quaint isn't?

Who gets to define "authentic"?

And Zimquats, too bad if this is way above your allegedly handsome head.

[Caramia]

Here is my answer to that...

The degree of self-consciousness is what differentiates the two. A "Themed" city chooses to be "quaint" and not only self identifies as such but seeks to encourage it through bylaws and rules. A rural village in the Swiss Alps can also be quaint quite authentically, but in this case it is seen as such either by an outsider or criticized by a disaffected member of the community. Anyhow, the moment that the village council starts marketing itself a "quaint" it becomes part of that consumer lexicon. The moment it starts to plan itself in order to be "more quaint" or "preserve the quaintness" it can no longer claim authenticity.

Gritty is something that happens to a city when layer upon layer of urban life are piled on top of each other under a condition of benign (or not) neglect. With that neglect comes a freedom for people who aren't as comfortable in the consumer oriented mono-culture that invades urban areas hand in hand with the influx of wealth. It is in the gritty areas of the city that diversity thrives and that codes of behaviour are able to vary the most. Which is most likely why it is the gritty areas that attract artists and artistic people.

And then that grit is re-interpreted, re-packaged for the consuming public - often by those same artists. It becomes part of that gentrifying lexicon.

Where I find this ironic at best is that the re-packaging is so complete that people can no longer tell the difference. They imagine that the grit has no other meaning than as a style. People walk past the guy sitting begging on the corner and wonder what place he has here among the galleries and condos.

Did you know that to renovate the Wilson building on Herald St they tore down the shack where the Apple Tree Gang had called home for over a decade? The old guys stood on the sidelines and yelled "That was my home!" until the police took them away. Or did you know that a graffiti ridden alley sported the names of the entire group - all those old "characters" that used to be seen downtown? Each name was crossed out in turn as they died & RIP added. On anniversaries of deaths sometimes people left flowers or small offerings. I used to wander past there from time to time to remember a couple of names on that wall. Their memorial was painted over because graffiti is a senseless crime, meaningless vandalism. But property rights aren't the only thing that gives a thing meaning. And the Apple Tree gang was only one of the strange and wonderful communities that existed in the shadow of that neglect.

Those gritty habitats have become few and far between, and those remaining pockets have become magnets - far more condensed than ever before. Like cougars wandering through suburbs that have replaced their habitat, the grittiest people are still there, polluting the nice sanitized city that expands during times of prosperity - until the police "Clean up the streets" corralling all that is "unsightly" away from the consumer eye in ever increasing concentrations into what becomes urban "reservations" like areas of East Van, or in Victoria - Rock Bay and the Gorge.

And grit remains trendy.

The return to the inner city is a good thing. But it has a dark side too.