2302 replies to this topic

[Ismo07]

Things can look confusing when viewed from the air, but make more sense down on the ground.

Our road network at the bridge is perfectly fine from the air, it’s the signalling and complexity of who goes when and how the modes interact that is the issue.

 

The Magic Roundabout: Swindon's Terrifying Traffic Circle and Emergent Behaviour - YouTube

[Mike K.]

@my biggest confusion is the right turn onto Wharf. It’s a separately controlled turn, and as you flow in with green traffic heading for Johnson the turn light is separate and can be red, or you have the green but a pedestrian or bike sneaks across because they don’t realize at this particular pedestrian crossing vehicles don’t have to yield to them like they have at that point for the last 100 years, and the crossing is so short. I’ve had to stop hard for this very thing, luckily nobody was behind me.

Meanwhile, as the driver, your instinct based on accepted road design is to look left for traffic heading onto Wharf which you traditionally would yield for at all other similarly designed flow lane turns. It’s a lot to take in and it’s confusing.

[Mike K.]

The Magic Roundabout: Swindon's Terrifying Traffic Circle and Emergent Behaviour - YouTube

Yes, the guy says “Americans, you’re going to find this a little bit scary.”

[Ismo07]

@my biggest confusion is the right turn onto Wharf. It’s a separately controlled turn, and as you flow in with green traffic heading for Johnson the turn light is separate and can be red, or you have the green but a pedestrian or bike sneaks across because they don’t realize at this particular pedestrian crossing vehicles don’t have to yield to them like they have at that point for the last 100 years, and the crossing is so short. I’ve had to stop hard for this very thing, luckily nobody was behind me.

Meanwhile, as the driver, your instinct based on accepted road design is to look left for traffic heading onto Wharf which you traditionally would yield for at all other similarly designed flow lane turns. It’s a lot to take in and it’s confusing.

 

I can think of another light like that in Greater Victoria, that controls the right turn separately..  While not common it is still an accepted road design.  There are other roads that will have this treatment, granted many of them are larger for sure.

 

 

Yes, the guy says “Americans, you’re going to find this a little bit scary.”

 

Yes it's confusing for those you do not use it, but doesn't mean it doesn't work....  Pay attention to lights and signs all will be good...

[Mike K.]

Until it isn’t, right?

[Ismo07]

Until it isn’t, right?

 

You can say that for anything.  Certainly if all people behaved and adhered to what they are supposed to do (bikes, peds and vehicle traffic alike) we'd all be better off.  There are times people won't and there will be an increase in accidents..

 

What is the % of accidents compared to number of vehicles through an intersection for it to be acceptable? 

 

For those who actually think accidents are increasing for bikes, ICBC has a nice reporting tool.

 

BC - Crashes involving Cyclists- | Tableau Public

[Mike K.]

You can say that for anything.  Certainly if all people behaved and adhered to what they are supposed to do (bikes, peds and vehicle traffic alike) we'd all be better off.

 

We know it doesn't work that way, so we try to simplify our infrastructure to make it reasonably intuitive for the lowest common denominator. The east side of the bridge is very complicated. If it wasn't, engineers would not be trying to make it less complicated for the third year now. The traffic flow keeps being changed.

 

We've never seen new infrastructure in our region require this much fine-tuning, so long after completion.

[Victoria Watcher]

We know it doesn't work that way, so we try to simplify our infrastructure to make it reasonably intuitive for the lowest common denominator.

 

Indeed.  We are calling these lanes "all ages and abilities", so we certainly should be trying for simplicity.

[JohnsonStBridge]

If the right turn traffic control is too much to take in I would suggest avoiding big cities like Seattle or Vancouver. I've heard they have similar light controls to limit merging onto a freeway! These red and green lights would surely flummox one's poor brain and override all established road instincts. Best to save the inevitable confusion.

[Mike K.]

Why do some people insist on using avatars from when they were much younger?

[Ismo07]

Indeed.  We are calling these lanes "all ages and abilities", so we certainly should be trying for simplicity.

 

Can't be more simple.  Green is go and red is stop.  Most years there is 1 accident (or 2) with a cyclist on this huge intersection.  There wasn't one reported to ICBC last year and now we have one sadly, glad everyone is alright.  Nothing has changed except there are way more cyclists on that route...  

 

 

We know it doesn't work that way, so we try to simplify our infrastructure to make it reasonably intuitive for the lowest common denominator. The east side of the bridge is very complicated. If it wasn't, engineers would not be trying to make it less complicated for the third year now. The traffic flow keeps being changed.

 

We've never seen new infrastructure in our region require this much fine-tuning, so long after completion.

 

This is a tough one for sure and will be some tweaking over the next while.  Borden Street at Mackenzie has gone over some changes well after it was first placed.  Millstream over pass and the approaches from both sides have gone through major changes through it's life time.  It's still terrible but is what it is, more changes to that to come too...   That intersection is complicated and I will offer that from the keyboard warriors that there is no absolute way to fix it where everyone thinks it's good.  The way you guys make it sound is there should be an accident every day there cause it's so hard to understand you go on green.  This has been blown up a little too much.  A fellow made a mistake because he failed to stop for a red, thinking he could make a right on a red.  

[Victoria Watcher]

Can't be more simple.  Green is go and red is stop.  

 

For cyclists, green should also be "don't proceed until you are sure there is not someone in a 2500 lb. car - or massive white cargo truck - violating the rules near here".

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 11 July 2022 - 10:48 AM.

[Mike K.]

Millstream wasn't broken, it just needed more turning capacity onto the highway. I don't know what went wrong on at Borden.

 

We've been tweaking the east side of the JSB for three years now, and we're not yet done. It's hard to imagine engineers looking at this scenario from afar agree that our design is the right one.

[Ismo07]

Millstream wasn't broken, it just needed more turning capacity onto the highway. I don't know what went wrong on at Borden.

 

We've been tweaking the east side of the JSB for three years now, and we're not yet done. It's hard to imagine engineers looking at this scenario from afar agree that our design is the right one.

 

 

Millstream is broken still sadly with a lot more congestion issues coming...  Only the one lane out of 3 that can take you from the Petro Can back into downtown Langford, the far right?  That's not going to be enough sadly..  

 

The tweaking that you think has been going on for 2 years downtown is a little bit of timing of the lights to find something optimal.  You make it sound like there have been multiple re-designs.   This is a dogs breakfast, the only way to improve this for vehicle traffic is to remove some sidewalks from the equation and don't really allow access to the middle park area and that won't likely be palatable.  There are simply too many signals....

[Mike K.]

It’s not broken. There’s only so much you can do with a bridge, given how much traffic is coming and going to Costco to/from Victoria etc.

And I agree, it’s signal overload at the JSB. Far too much going on, and the timing between modes leaves zero room for error. Then the further we obstruct flow, the more runs on reds we’ll see.

[Ismo07]

It’s not broken. There’s only so much you can do with a bridge, given how much traffic is coming and going to Costco to/from Victoria etc.

And I agree, it’s signal overload at the JSB. Far too much going on, and the timing between modes leaves zero room for error. Then the further we obstruct flow, the more runs on reds we’ll see.

 

I haven't seen a statement from the driver but he didn't run the red due to overload, just was going along with what be thought was ok...  Traffic issues many places doesn't cause this particular event.

[Mike K.]

There are few other places on this green earth where a vehicle turning right on a red will encounter two-way traffic immediately to their right, with a green.

It’s completely foreign, where passing on the right is not permitted. Cycling uses have created scenarios where it is permitted, and now we have problems.

[sebberry]

Should have been just one big round-about.

[Ismo07]

There are few other places on this green earth where a vehicle turning right on a red will encounter two-way traffic immediately to their right, with a green.

It’s completely foreign, where passing on the right is not permitted. Cycling uses have created scenarios where it is permitted, and now we have problems.

 

C'mon.. A lot of places have two way bike lanes and have no right on red...

 

(434) New Uptown to Downtown Seattle Bike Lanes [4K][Bike Tour][Climate Pledge Arena] - YouTube

 

Eyes on the Street: New 2-Way Protected Bike Lane on Evanston’s Chicago Avenue – Streetsblog Chicago

 

Protecting the Bike – Dual Right Turn Lane Conflict in Portland (NE Broadway & Williams) - Student Projects in Traffic Signal Control (google.com)

 

Peter Koonce, the City of Portland's traffic signal engineer, designed and installed these traffic signals in 2011 and they have worked exceptionally well at reducing the cyclist crash rate and the delay for cyclists.

 

Then there is this treatment, though not enough room on Wharf for this...  

 

City removes portion of N Rosa Parks bike lane to allow right turns - BikePortland

 

C:\walkinginfo\task_orders\to_14b\blue_bike\FHWA3ND.PDF (nacto.org)

Edited by Ismo07, 11 July 2022 - 01:15 PM.

[Mike K.]

Most places don’t. What Victoria has done is not business as usual.