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[Bicycles] Issues with bicycles and cyclists in Victoria


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#1921 On the Level

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Posted 09 January 2021 - 06:42 PM

How many cars have to ford a river before a bridge is needed?  

 

How many jobs need to move out of the downtown core before non-bicycle transportation is taken seriously?


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#1922 rmpeers

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Posted 09 January 2021 - 07:05 PM

The problem with that line of thought is that everything ends up being designed for the lowest common denominator of potential user, and thus less efficient for all.


I believe roads should be designed for the lowest common denominator, absolutely.

#1923 On the Level

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Posted 09 January 2021 - 07:17 PM

I believe roads should be designed for the lowest common denominator, absolutely.

 

Sure....but for anyone that has a motorcycle license there is a significant amount of education to make sure the driver is competent and also expects others to make mistakes.  Cyclist culture is the opposite.

 

Look at all of the skill levels of the folks around you.  Some can barely navigate getting up from their chair.  No-one should think they have "the right of way" because it ultimately means nothing.

 

You can't design your way out of taking responsibility for your safety.  



#1924 Nparker

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Posted 09 January 2021 - 07:21 PM

...You can't design your way out of taking responsibility for your safety.  

That's a good point.



#1925 Rex Waverly

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 12:20 PM

You can't design your way out of taking responsibility for your safety.  

 

I guess you've never heard of air bags, seatbelts, anti-lock breaks, crumple zones, guard rails, speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, super-elevated road curvature, street lights, lane markings, concrete median barriers, rumble strips, rash attenuators, guidelines, roundabouts, and so on......

 

I thought it went without saying, but safety is a HUGE part of transportation engineering and design.   


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#1926 Brantastic

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 02:45 PM

Yeah, that's so silly. That's like saying we don't need railings along the Dallas Road sidewalk overlooking the cliffs because pedestrians should be responsible for their own safety.


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#1927 Brantastic

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 02:46 PM

Or sidewalks at all for that matter.


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#1928 laconic

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 03:31 PM

Many other cultures have a much different sense of personal responsibility for safety.

In Zagreb, you can walk a long way down the main shopping street with no barriers at all between pedestrians and electric street cars. Not much for controlled crossings either.

https://earth.app.goo.gl/sanvWr

#1929 Jackerbie

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 03:52 PM

Many other cultures have a much different sense of personal responsibility for safety.

In Zagreb, you can walk a long way down the main shopping street with no barriers at all between pedestrians and electric street cars. Not much for controlled crossings either.

https://earth.app.goo.gl/sanvWr

 

FWIW, the same was true in North America until the auto industry invented the term "jay walking" and convinced politicians to criminalize it


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#1930 mbjj

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 04:06 PM

Sort of like walking out on the "French Lieutenant's Woman's" Cobb in Lyme Regis with no handrails, which we did. The top is sloped too so extra tricky. I can't imagine them putting railings there, even though folks fall off from time to time. 



#1931 Rex Waverly

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 04:20 PM

Many other cultures have a much different sense of personal responsibility for safety.

In Zagreb, you can walk a long way down the main shopping street with no barriers at all between pedestrians and electric street cars. Not much for controlled crossings either.

https://earth.app.goo.gl/sanvWr

 

That photo doesn't make sense; how can there be so many people in a vibrant and bustling downtown if there's no cars at all?  :)

 

I imagine it's a lot easier for pedestrians to deal with crossing a road with a few trolleys on it vs. a few hundred cars. Much easier to judge when it's safe to cross. I'm assuming the trolleys aren't moving all that fast either (are they the kind that you just jump on and off? or are there proper transit stops?). 

 

I don't envy any cyclists on that road though....  


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#1932 mbjj

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 04:25 PM

Many other cultures have a much different sense of personal responsibility for safety.

In Zagreb, you can walk a long way down the main shopping street with no barriers at all between pedestrians and electric street cars. Not much for controlled crossings either.

https://earth.app.goo.gl/sanvWr

I think that's found in most of Europe. Always people darting in front of trams in Munich, Vienna, Bordeaux etc. I don't recall any barriers at all, lol. 


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#1933 On the Level

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 10:12 AM

I guess you've never heard of air bags, seatbelts, anti-lock breaks, crumple zones, guard rails, speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, super-elevated road curvature, street lights, lane markings, concrete median barriers, rumble strips, rash attenuators, guidelines, roundabouts, and so on......

 

I thought it went without saying, but safety is a HUGE part of transportation engineering and design.   

 

I am not saying that there shouldn't be bike lanes and safety measures, but you won't mind me riding my bike out across the road because there are "elephant's feet" without being extremely cautious.  

 

You can be righteous as much as you want, but there is still reality to deal with.  What makes riding a bike that much different than a motorcycle where you feel you can just take the right of way because you are supposed to have it?  Common sense would tell you that bad things are going to happen unless you are careful. 



#1934 Rex Waverly

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 11:57 AM

I am not saying that there shouldn't be bike lanes and safety measures, but you won't mind me riding my bike out across the road because there are "elephant's feet" without being extremely cautious.  

 

You can be righteous as much as you want, but there is still reality to deal with.  What makes riding a bike that much different than a motorcycle where you feel you can just take the right of way because you are supposed to have it?  Common sense would tell you that bad things are going to happen unless you are careful. 

 

Of course cyclists should take appropriate care while riding. No-one should go through an intersection without making sure of the safety. Same with pedestrians, who shouldn't start crossing until they are sure vehicles will stop. 

 

But still, you have to expect other road users to understand the rules and yield the right-of-way as required. That's one of the bedrock principles of traffic control, design, engineering...... if you're driving through a green light, do you have the responsibility to make sure no-one is going to run the red light and hit you? That would require at the very least slowing down at every intersection, otherwise you're just taking the right-of-way because you are supposed to have it.  

 

You're never going to be able to completely eliminate risk, and all users should be looking out for their safety and the safety of other users.  Traffic control, signage, crosswalk markings, etc. are there to improve safety by making sure everyone is on the same page but it's not going to be perfect in the real world.. The only fool-proof method is to separate all users but that's obviously not possible without a ton of costs and land requirements.  


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#1935 On the Level

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 12:17 PM

But still, you have to expect other road users to understand the rules and yield the right-of-way as required. 

 

You should not expect other road users to yield the right of way.....because at times they won't.  At times they will be drunk, on their phone, being distracted by their kids, highly uncoordinated, bad eyesight/depth perception etc etc etc.  



#1936 Barrrister

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 12:21 PM

Would not a simpler and safer solution be to simply ban bicycles on Richardson?



#1937 Rex Waverly

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 12:23 PM

Would not a simpler and safer solution be to simply ban bicycles on Richardson?

 

Technically yes.  It'd be even safer and simpler to ban all cars from Richardson too.   


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#1938 Rex Waverly

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 12:36 PM

You should not expect other road users to yield the right of way.....because at times they won't.  At times they will be drunk, on their phone, being distracted by their kids, highly uncoordinated, bad eyesight/depth perception etc etc etc.  

 

You kind of have to expect it though, otherwise you couldn't drive anywhere. 

 

If you're driving down the highway, should you expect the driver in the lane beside you to yield the right-of-way to you and not cross into your lane, sending you into the ditch?  

If you stop at a red light, should you expect the driver behind you to yield the right-of-way to you and stop?  And if not, is it your fault you were rear-ended?   

When you're driving through a 2-way stop controlled intersection (with the stop control on the cross road), do you expect drivers on the side road to stop at the stop sign?  Is it your responsibility to make sure they do?  

 

If there's an elephant's foot trail crossing, there is (or should be) either a stop / yield sign for drivers or for cyclists.  Should a cyclist assume a driver will stop at a stop sign? Should they have to?  


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#1939 On the Level

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 01:02 PM

You kind of have to expect it though, otherwise you couldn't drive anywhere. 

 

If you're driving down the highway, should you expect the driver in the lane beside you to yield the right-of-way to you and not cross into your lane, sending you into the ditch?  

 

Actually, yes.  This is part of driver training.  This is why you are trained to stay out of the blind spots of vehicles in the lanes beside you, leave space in front of you so you have somewhere to go.

 

 

If you stop at a red light, should you expect the driver behind you to yield the right-of-way to you and stop?  And if not, is it your fault you were rear-ended?   

 

Have you noticed that Motorcycles stop well behind the vehicle ahead of them?  Much further than other vehicle users.  It's so they can get around and beside the vehicle in front of them if they see someone isn't slowing down behind.  This is taught by ICBC.

 

 

When you're driving through a 2-way stop controlled intersection (with the stop control on the cross road), do you expect drivers on the side road to stop at the stop sign?  Is it your responsibility to make sure they do?  

 

This is why you scan left and right when driving through an intersection even though you have the right of way.  For motorcycles, if the examiner notices you do not scan every 5 to 8 seconds you fail.

 

I am wondering.....for those that are so devoted to cycling everywhere, do they have drivers license and have they had any professional training?  Perhaps this is why there is such a communications disconnect?



#1940 Rex Waverly

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Posted 12 January 2021 - 01:28 PM

Actually, yes.  This is part of driver training.  This is why you are trained to stay out of the blind spots of vehicles in the lanes beside you, leave space in front of you so you have somewhere to go.

 

 

Have you noticed that Motorcycles stop well behind the vehicle ahead of them?  Much further than other vehicle users.  It's so they can get around and beside the vehicle in front of them if they see someone isn't slowing down behind.  This is taught by ICBC.

 

 

This is why you scan left and right when driving through an intersection even though you have the right of way.  For motorcycles, if the examiner notices you do not scan every 5 to 8 seconds you fail.

 

I am wondering.....for those that are so devoted to cycling everywhere, do they have drivers license and have they had any professional training?  Perhaps this is why there is such a communications disconnect?

 

As far as i know, that's only part of motorcycle training. Standard drivers don't get that training, and all of those conflicts can occur for drivers as well. Even though drivers are better protected than most other users, they aren't invulnerable and thus should still follow the same steps to watch their safety, no?

 

Also it's probably a bit misleading to equate motorcyclists with cyclists; the speeds at which cyclists operate are much slower and are typically only mixing with traffic in slower speeds (50 km/h or less).

 

Expecting cyclists to require licencing and training would be a huge impediment for cyclists. One of the main advantages to cycling (when safe routes are provided) is that the barriers for entry are so low. Not everyone can afford a car (or training or insurance), not everyone is able to have a licence (medical issues, age, etc).  

 

No-one is advocating licencing pedestrians, yet they use crosswalks and road shoulders and shared streets where appropriate, same as cyclists.  They too should look out for their safety but it's not unreasonable to expect vehicles to, for example, stay off the sidewalks or stop at stop signs or red lights.  


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