3132 replies to this topic

[Holden West]

^Here's another. Would I be allowed to operate a record store that specialized in hardcore death metal?

I know what this new "town centre"'s motto will be:

"Lautus Pro Vestri Tutela"

(Sanitized for your protection)

[Caramia]

The proposed commercial development -- more than triple the size of the current buildings -- would not have "themed" architecture. Rather, it would have a mix to look as if it evolved over time.

Haha that quote cracked me up. The "theme" is "evolved over time"... as soon as you have the words "to look as if.." you have a theme. Who are they kidding? Not that I have anything terribly against themed environments, in fact, you might even say that they ARE the "authentic" turn of the millenium style... look at the growth of themed environments around the world, from theme parks, to entire themed towns like Celebration, to themed chunks of the city... a la Time Square post Disney.

A couple of interesting books on that topic are by John Hannigan "Fantasy City: Pleasure and Profit in the Postmodern Metropolis New York" and Sharon Zukin, "The Cultures of Cities" and "Landscapes of Power".

Hannigan uses a term I like very much to describe what aastra was talking about: "'Sanitized Razzmatazz" A wonderfully evocative phrase, I thought, for an environment meant to stimulate and excite without the natural counterpart ... that edge of fear, and freedom.

I think the good people of Saanich might be naive if they think this complex will work as a legitimate town centre. Are you allowed to rollerblade inside the complex? Are kids allowed to ride bikes on the sidewalk? Are you allowed to hand out leaflets or hold a political demonstration? Heck, are you allowed to panhandle? Will public transit run down the main "street"?

From [url=http://www.uwgb.edu/urs/Ray_Hutchison_web_pages/Fantasy_City_Review.htm:ae3db]a review of "Fantasy City"[/url:ae3db]

In the conclusion to the book, Hannigan summarizes an article from the New York Times Book Review which suggested ways to distinguish between gentrification and revitalization: does it recreate wealth in the community; does it recreate the possibility of safe, random encounters; and does it allow post-industrial downtowns to retain their distinctive character.

In the end I think this criteria should be applied to any and all developments downtown or elsewhere. In the end, I think this matters more than authenticity.

[Walter Moar]

Saanich mall plan hearing set for Jan. 23
Kim Westad, Times Colonist
Thursday, December 14, 2006

A public hearing about the proposed redevelopment of Town and Country Shopping Centre will be set for Jan. 23 if the developer can get more information to Saanich council by early next month.

Council, staff and some residents were in favour Tuesday night of the 600,000-square-foot commercial development planned for the outdated strip mall, but all still have tweaks and suggestions that they hope the developer will take into account before its presentation Jan. 23.

[...]

[Mike K.]

Not everyone likes the idea. Some councillors said the redevelopment will provide a town centre for Saanich, but a few residents said it seems more like a "phoney downtown" than a real one.

A few residents or folks from this forum?

[aastra]

Council, staff and some residents were in favour Tuesday night of the 600,000-square-foot commercial development planned for the outdated strip mall, but all still have tweaks and suggestions that they hope the developer will take into account...

Good gravy! Nobody had any major issues with this gigantic project?? In Victoria the smallest infill building gets put through the proverbial wringer!

Several councillors and residents also didn't like the large blank wall of the new Wal-Mart store that would line Blanshard Street.

In the city we hear impassioned speeches because a proposal is two stories too tall or because it doesn't include a useless hidden walkway.

[Ben Smith]

Those pictures above are a joke.

That isn't downtown, thats a well-off urban area.

Foolishness. Seattle has a downtown. Vancouver has a downtown. Toronto has a downtown. All great cities in this world have downtowns! Why in Gods name are Victorians so against skyscrapers! What do they change? If done right, they bring only pros, no cons included.

SILLYNESS I SAY :-x

[Urbalist]

"The architecture of the retail areas will be designed to reflect .... the rich heritage of the surrounding area ...."

Morguard Investments and Chandler Architecture


I'm not sure what exactly they're referring to. Petrocan or Shell? McDonalds or Save-On Foods?

Perhaps Uncle Willy's Buffet.

[Holden West]

There's a great old house on the corner of Saanich Road and Blanshard. Oops, my mistake--it was torn down to make room for the La-Z-Boy store.

Urbalist is right--the oldest thing in that area is a 128 oz. can of three-bean-salad hidden in the back storage pantry of Uncle Willy's.

[Urbalist]

As the legend goes, Victor Gruen, an early designer of the suburban shopping mall, was inspired by the narrow downtown streets of his native Vienna when he designed the Northland Mall in suburban Detroit. Now, a new style of shopping mall called the "lifestyle center" is attempting to remake the traditional mall by imitating (sometimes poorly) the strengths of a traditional Main Street or downtown shopping experience — a sense of place, contextual architecture, good design, vibrancy, and things to see and do.

While lifestyle centers may be more enjoyable places to visit than their predecessors, they're almost always built in places that are inaccessible by transit, bike, or foot. While walkable on the inside, many lifestyle centers devote as much as 75% of their acreage to parking.

SGA Communications Director David Goldberg was interviewed for a recent piece in the [url=http://www.boston.com/realestate/news/articles/2006/12/09/downtowns_vs_lifestyle_centers/:85211]Boston Globe[/url:85211] about the competition that lifestyle centers pose for traditional commercial districts “We like to see downtowns revitalized and reused. First and foremost, that's the priority," he said, affirming the idea that smart growth is about maximizing our existing investments and unique assets.

In a commentary in the [url=http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-postrel10dec10,1,6729865.story?ctrack=1&cset=true:85211]LA Times[/url:85211], Virginia Postrel formerly of Reason magazine celebrates the arrival of “the hum of city life” in new mixed use developments, “even in suburbia”. She retraces the evolution of the mall, from Gruen’s hoped-for recreation of a European street to the enclosed, ugly “machines that sell” and now to something more akin to Gruen’s vision of 60 years ago. But while she appreciates the appeal of city pleasures, she is a bit too sanguine about the restricted, heavily privatized nature of these new centers. From LoDo in Denver to Portland's Pearl District, mixed-use residential and shopping districts have long been important public gathering places where culture can be shared and expressed. But in a privately-owned shopping center, access and assembly can be strictly controlled.

Imitation is regarded as flattery, and some feel that advocates of small towns and traditional commercial shopping districts across the country shouldn't fear, but should try to capitalize on the desirable and unique qualities of Main Street that mall developers have picked up on. Richard Layman, a historic preservation advocate in Washington, D.C. believes that the greatest strength of Main Street and traditional commercial districts is one that shopping malls, whatever they're called, will never possess: Authenticity.

“A commercial shopping center is built at once, designed by one architect, and built by one developer, and can never achieve organically the authentic feel of a place constructed over decades. Shopping centers, no matter the type, are all about the sale of goods and only the sale of goods. There is little room for civic and social functions or cultural venues.”

Read the rest of [url=http://support.smartgrowthamerica.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5659:85211]Layman's[/url:85211] take on traditional commercial districts, and visit his prolific blog about urban issues in D.C and other northeastern cities. For even more background on lifestyle centers, read this piece from [url=http://www.slate.com/id/2116246/:85211]Slate[/url:85211].

[aastra]

The only legitimate heritage building I can think of around there is Tolmie School.

[VicHockeyFan]

There's a great old house on the corner of Saanich Road and Blanshard. Oops, my mistake--it was torn down to make room for the La-Z-Boy store.

Negative. It was moved, I believe to a Gulf Island.

[Urbalist]

What of the Scandesigns building across Douglas? ... it sits low - I can't quite picture its style. May be a simple box with good furnishings.

[Holden West]

^Odd little 1960s brutalist/modernist box, originally raw concrete similar to the old TD tower at Douglas and Johnson. I imagine when it was built it was truly in the middle of nowhere.

[Scaper]

Does Saanich Council really believe that the T & C center will bring to saanich a core center??? bahahahaha!!!! Saanich council and mayor have no vision at all. All Saanich is, is a masive sprawl. From ten mile point to Mayfair Mall to the Gorge, to Vic General Hospital to Elk Lake....and they think this Town and Country center will redefine Saanich and give their lacking core center!!! bahahahahaa.....What a bunch of misfits!!!

[Ms. B. Havin]

There's a brief editorial in today's T-C, [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/comment/story.html?id=c716cac9-a53a-4d10-ac1d-1210056d4f69:794dd]Northern entrance gets a makeover[/url:794dd], which has the interesting subtitle, "Rebuilt Town and Country will help shape the image of all of Greater Victoria".

I think it's an interesting title-and-subtitle because of the way it does backflips to avoid the issue of where Victoria starts, where it ends, what Saanich is, and what exactly this "northern entrance" is an entrance to. To Victoria? To Saanich? To what? "Greater" Victoria? What's that, then?

Surely not the bits of things that add up to the City of Victoria, with a downtown of its own? From the editorial:

The mall is on one of the most visible parcels of land in Greater Victoria, seen by anyone entering the downtown by both the Trans-Canada and Patricia Bay highways. For almost half a century, Town and Country has provided an important first impression of the city.

In 1961, when the mall opened, that impression was positive. Suburban shopping centres were still a novelty and Town and Country sent a message that Greater Victoria was on the leading edge.

(...snip...)

...it comes down to the shopping centre's location. It marks the northern boundary of an evolving commercial and residential area that stretches all the way to the southern edge of downtown Victoria.

...So, one might think that this mall redevelopment is important for a "greater" Victoria, which is a codeword for the City of Victoria. The writer mentions the city's downtown twice in that quoted bit. But then we end with the classic Victoria schizophrenic split:

Done right, Town and Country could become a key focal point for Saanich, and give the municipality a downtown to call its own. It needs to be designed with the long term in mind.

"...a downtown to call its own"! OMG. It's like that old song, [url=http://www.jonimitchell.com/musician/song.cfm?id=Twisted:794dd]Twisted[/url:794dd] (done by Joni Mitchell & many others), which ends with this line: "two heads are better than one..." Yeah, well, that's what they all say...

[hungryryno]

You know where I think some hi density development should occur is University Heights. Its close to UVic and Camosun-Lansdowne, has two good arterial routes that can be widened to six-lane roads like any major city has, has excellent bus service in place, has good shopping close by (U Heights, Tuscany Vlg., Saanich Ctr., Hillside Mall, Shelbourne Plaza), and all round a nice area to live!

A couple of 20-30 storey high rises???

We need to remember that Hillside Mall is due for a major expansion in the northeast corner. That was in the T-C in the spring 2006.

[Urbalist]

The only thing significant about the location of T&C is that it's at the nexus of the Trans-Can and Pat Bay Hwys (17 and 1). It's not the start, end or centre of anything.

Sure, it's serves its purpose, but there are succinct limits to the amount of rediscovery and glorification we can heap.

It is just an old mall.

[FunkyMunky]

...

[G-Man]

My god actually be able to see the city from View Royal! The Horror!

Ken Whiscroft lives in Saanich or View Royal? what is the point of his inclusion here except to show that Victoria news plans to continue its bizarre anti-development stance.

I mean the only good part of this development is the potential for residents, the rest is cheesey hokey crap.

[Mike K.]

If that is the only comment someone said about the pending "skyscraper" situation at T&C, then I'm sure we can all agree most folks didn't have an issue with the high-density, highrise, concept and the paper was desperate for something -- anything!

...but nevertheless expect a concerted effort from folks sharing Mr. Whiscroft's mindset to start the ball rolling on opposition.