3308 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

No that's not how it works, just ask a few of my friends:
The cruise industry, just like everyone else, has to pay for the power to be brought to the site. Some of those costs may be recovered through the rate by the customer.
Your use of the word "public" is mystifying... because it's not. The GVHA is a society and there's nothing public about that, and of course they are encouraging... it's their mandate! The location is not a public marine facility, it's for private commercial interests.

Any vessel can request to dock there. It’s not a BC Ferries terminal or a Seaspan dock. It’s a port of call open to all vessels that need its facilities and can pay the docking rate. It’s not selective and open to only a handful of companies.

[Stephen James]

No, I’m saying you might not be familiar with the difference between a handout to a corporation and a public infrastructure investment that corporations can pay to use.

We’re not giving cruise ships free shore power. We would charge them to hook up, and recover fees for the shore power system. That’s how it works in business in a country ruled by a system of just laws and policies. Under the eyes of the law, we are all equal, and the law will not favour your theory that because a corporation makes more in profit than others that it must be forced to pay for the demands of a public port facility it chooses to dock at, and which the facility operators encourage it to dock at.

My comment about the cruise industry's profitability was only to underline the absurdity of this idea.  I don't believe any corporation deserves a public handout and the idea of giving one to this industry, one of the most profitable in the world and also one of the worst environmental offenders, especially in "pure" Victoria, is just bizarre.

[Mike K.]

Nobody is giving them a handout. We want shore power at Ogden Point, so we’ll build it and charge for vessels to use it.

It’s no more complicated than that.

[Hotel Mike]

Uh, in all the fuss about shore power, the 2019 cruise season quietly passed into history. The very last ship visit was supposed to be last Friday, the day B.C. Ferries cancelled sailings because of high winds. The Princess ship thought better of it and did not dock. So no fanfare. Next cruise ship in April.

[Stephen James]

You’re asking Ford to build a seatbelt factory, though. That’s where your argument falls apart. That being said, Ford has happily included seatbelts in its cars for nearly a hundred years purchased from a seatbelt manufacturer. Just like every other auto company, they buy components created for the industry. They don’t build their own factories for every component, like you’re asking the cruise ship industry to do (build shore power at public ports all over the world). It makes zero sense.

Now we're getting somewhere...

 

Yes, Ford did build a seatbelt factory and also paid money to seatbelt manufacturers.  This became a new cost fo doing business.  (Again, businesses don't decide community standards, the community does.)  Then they raised prices to account for the additional cost, which was ultimately paid for by the users (the car buyers), not the taxpayer.  This is how it's supposed to work.

 

You seem to want US to build Ford the seatbelt factory which makes everyone pay for the cost that only the drivers use.  Nuts.

[Stephen James]

Any vessel can request to dock there. It’s not a BC Ferries terminal or a Seaspan dock. It’s a port of call open to all vessels that need its facilities and can pay the docking rate. It’s not selective and open to only a handful of companies.

Yup and more to explain how it's supposed to work:

When I tie my boat up to a pier and plug in, the cost of my shore power service is covered by the docking rate.  The marina didn't get government money to install a shore power system.

[Mike K.]

Probably a good thing they didn’t build that shore power system only half of their vessels can use and which is only needed seven months of the year, with about 12 weeks of which see just a tiny trickle of vessels.

[Mike K.]

Yup and more to explain how it's supposed to work:

When I tie my boat up to a pier and plug in, the cost of my shore power service is covered by the docking rate.  The marina didn't get government money to install a shore power system.

 

You're comparing small pleasure craft to the world's largest, most complex and high energy-consuming vessels, though, and a marina owned by the same organization that paid for the shore power.

 

I think you made the case for what we're trying to say, that the marina (your marina) wants vessels to use shore power, so they paid for it to be installed and you pay for it through your moorage fees.

[Rob Randall]

Any time one of those huge cruise ships dock it automatically cracks the top 50 population centres of BC.

 

Well, maybe not "any time" as they are not always at full capacity. But often there are two or three huge ships at once so basically yes.

Edited by Rob Randall, 28 October 2019 - 11:24 AM.

[lanforod]

Uh, in all the fuss about shore power, the 2019 cruise season quietly passed into history. The very last ship visit was supposed to be last Friday, the day B.C. Ferries cancelled sailings because of high winds. The Princess ship thought better of it and did not dock. So no fanfare. Next cruise ship in April.

 

I wonder how many ships initially planned to dock here and then didn't. I was on the NCL Joy a few weeks ago and we also missed our Victoria stop due to tide changes; needed to leave Vancouver later than expected. I didn't really care too much, but there were a lot of disappointed passengers.

[Torrontes]

You're comparing small pleasure craft to the world's largest, most complex and high energy-consuming vessels, though, and a marina owned by the same organization that paid for the shore power.

 

I think you made the case for what we're trying to say, that the marina (your marina) wants vessels to use shore power, so they paid for it to be installed and you pay for it through your moorage fees.

 

In a lot of pleasure craft marinas, shore power is optional and you pay based upon the type of connection available and used (e.g. 35 amp, 50 amp, dual 50 amp, etc.). The owner's decision is typically based upon convenience - a quiet, smoke-free source of reliable power, rather than running generators, which require fuel and maintenance. Many marinas don't allow continuous generator operation, because selling shore power is a convenience factor, it doesn't piss-off neighbouring slip-mates, and it is a source of income. I can't imagine it is much different for cruise ships, especially when they are only making short-term stops. There's a big difference between the benefits enjoyed by a home port (a city where a ship is permanently based, e.g. Seattle) and a port-of-call (a city where transient ships merely visit, e.g. Victoria).

 

Is using shore power mandatory at Ogden Point? Are there universal or standard cable connectors for the kind of power on offer? What standards need to be applied for safety and technical purposes? How long does it take to hook-up and then disconnect?

 

Some ports charge fees based upon tonnage, other by lengths, and others by number of passengers. Some combination of factors would appear to be reasonable.

 

The benefit of transient stops seems to be overblown. Local businesses think it's a goldmine (if only for a short period each year), but local costs and impacts are not well thought through. For example, Campbell River built a cruise ship terminal at great expense, which they now regret.

[Victoria Watcher]

the biggest delay can be when they hook up the big 6-ton marine usb2.6 cable. about half the time they try to insert it the wrong way. then they have to winch it back out again turn it over 180 degrees then try again.

[Stephen James]

You're comparing small pleasure craft to the world's largest, most complex and high energy-consuming vessels, though, and a marina owned by the same organization that paid for the shore power.

 

I think you made the case for what we're trying to say, that the marina (your marina) wants vessels to use shore power, so they paid for it to be installed and you pay for it through your moorage fees.

Once again, paid for by the users through the marina ownership, not the taxpayer.  When the marina accessed power, they had to pay BC Hydro to bring the services.  Taxpayer didn't pay.

[m3m]

So the GVHA should pay for it. Glad that’s settled.

[Mattjvd]

Not sure you understand accounting, or capital markets...

Yes they do, in fact and that's completely backwards.  Businesses make customers pay for their capital assets every day through the net profit.  Capital assets value are reduced through amortization which is the accounting mechanism that ensures money is saved and accounted for to pay for them.  They also use debt, matched in term to the expected life of the assets.  

 

That's exactly what I said: "Though operating cash flow" meaning the business (BC Hydro) funds the infrastructure from its net profit. Or investors (sure, add creditors)

 

Finally, if what you were saying were relevant, it's the business' job to attract investors from the private sector, not the governments', on their own merits.  If the investment community (not the public sector) thinks it's a prudent investment then they will offer the money.  

 

Otherwise it's a corporate welfare handout to one of the most profitable businesses in existence.  Nuts and, again, not capitalism: handouts.

(We can ignore the shameful environment track record.)

 

It's not a hand out. Hydro invests in its own assets to add a revenue stream. The ship lines pay for it eventually, through the electricity they buy, but not up front.

The point was, businesses don't usually approach prospective customers and say "give us a few million today, and we'll provide a service that you'll pay for in a few years." That can work for start-ups (usually in exchange for equity) and strategic partnerships, but I don't think it fits here. 

Edited by Mattjvd, 28 October 2019 - 03:14 PM.

[spanky123]

The benefit is to Victoria far more than to the cruise lines. I don't see why they should have to pay for it.

 

According to the Grumpy Taxpayers, Mayor Helps has stated that no "local" taxpayer funds will be used to fund shore power at Ogden point. Slice and dice that comment as you may.

 

http://grumpytaxpaye...or-shore-power/

[Victoria Watcher]

Victoria’s Cruise Ship Conundrum

As it positions itself as one of Canada’s greenest cities, Victoria has simultaneously been boosting an industry condemned around the world for its pollution

 

https://capnews.ca/c...a6f60-119762929

 

 

Idling your car for more than three minutes in Ogden Point’s parking lot can net you a $100 ticket. But only a few meters away, the same rules do not apply to the largest pleasure vessels on the planet. The Ovation of the Seas alone burns through a bathtubs’ worth of diesel roughly every six minutes. Without moving an inch, every hour the ship is in port it spews out the equivalent of eight tonnes of carbon dioxide. 

 

There are roughly 3,900 city-administered parking spots in the City of Victoria. If every one of those spots was filled with an idling Ford Focus, it would still be about 2,000 Focus’ short from equaling the carbon footprint of a hotelling Ovation of the Seas. 

 

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 29 October 2019 - 05:31 AM.

[VIResident]

This:

 

"Still, shore power is far from a blanket fix. For one, many ships simply decide not to plug in. After Vancouver installed shore power at its Canada Place piers, a 2014 survey found that fewer than one third of vessels made use of the option. Some cruise ships aren’t designed for it, and the ones that are might not be able to match their electrical system to Vancouver’s. "

 

and

 

"And even when all the plugs line up, it’s not exactly like flicking a switch. The average cruise ship needs at least 45 minutes to power down after arrival, and the same again before departure. On the five-hour stopovers that are typical for Victoria cruise visits, ships would still need to be burning fuel for at least a third of their visit. "

 

and

 

"During cruise season, roughly 150 tonnes per month of solid waste is shipped out of the Breakwater District to Hartland Landfill. In August, a study by the World Wildlife Fund estimated that cruise ships in B.C. waters were responsible for dumping 1.5 billion litres of grey water overboard. The vessels aren’t dumping sewage, but they’re spewing out everything from dishwater to laundry discharge. 

 

https://capnews.ca/c...a6f60-121164041

 

***BOOM***

 

Shoulda, woulda, coulda over the past 5 years, hell even the last 10 - plans in place, mitigate, manage, measure, report, innovate etc. etc. etc.  But that choice was not made, why? Who is responsible?  The GVHA board? Today's Council and past Council's (note some on today's Council have been on council for years).  Who is going to wrestle this beast now?  

Edited by VIResident, 29 October 2019 - 06:42 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

is it really a "beast" though? 

 

how much "grey water" have we been discharging for the last 100 years?

 

the article says it's pretty small emissions and garbage compared to our full-time population.

 

what are the emissions of the bc ferries and clipper and coho vessels and airliners into the harbour and yyj plus all the cars and buses they use as they drive into victoria - year-round?  i'm sure the cruise ship emissions are small fraction.  

 

the cruise ship bring in thousands of people tya for a large part walk into town (30%) or take buses into town or on excursions.  a tiny tiny tiny fraction use a limo or taxi or rent a car.  these tourists once they get here are pretty emissions-friendly compared to most others.  how may thousands of hotel rooms do we have and what percentage of those users are brining a personal car along?

 

we can go pretty hard on this one industry when we take it in isolation compared to all the other tourism and other economic activity around here. 

 

how about this, what about the 10,000+ foreign students we have here in town living full-time and using fossil fuel and also contributing to our housing crisis?  and not even "foreign" really.  why do we have non-victorians going to uvic camosun and royal roads?     more than 70% of uvic undergrads are from outside of victoria.  that's more than 10,000+ interlopers using our housing and contributing emissions plus another 10,000 foreigners doing the same..  

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 29 October 2019 - 07:12 AM.

[Mike K.]

And there we go. We already knew half of the vessels can’t even plug in. Now we learn for some it would be impractical.

That’s probably why Vancouver and Halifax have shore power and we don’t: we’re just a stopover.