3308 replies to this topic

[lanforod]

I hope that if the cruise ship industry gets a bailout from the US that, in lieu of an equity position, they are forced to flag their ships in the US.

I'm not so sure that's a good thing if that were to happen. It could result of that is a doubling or worse of cruise fares. That helps American/Canadians who want to work on cruise ships. The typical Malay who works on a cruise ship would get a bonanza of a pay rise. It drives business to cruise lines that don't need to pay US equivalent wages. There isn't a need for US wages on cruise lines, in my opinion unless you would rather those jobs went to Americans and Canadians, but that doesn't work well for the global nature of the cruise business.

[Greg]

I hope that if the cruise ship industry gets a bailout from the US that, in lieu of an equity position, they are forced to flag their ships in the US.

 

In that event, Victoria would be seeing exactly the number of cruise ships that we have had this week.

[Victoria Watcher]

I think we have already discussed that if they do that the entire model is broken. the model being cheap cruises food and drink. so the industry would have to shrink.

right now they run a 1st world atmosphere using third world wages. to maintain that atmosphere they would have to charge very high prices. doing so puts them at a disadvantage compared to 2nd world destinations like Dominican Republic and Mexico and Thailand,

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 07 April 2020 - 02:06 AM.

[lanforod]

They seem to pay 2nd world wages, not 3rd. Poke around here a bit: https://www.cruisesh...tress-jobs.html

2500 - 4500 USD/mo average for a waiter seems pretty good, especially since that includes full board (no benefits I think though).

[Victoria Watcher]

that’s for customer-facing jobs, where employees must have people skills and English language skills. and even then most of those jobs are for 60 or more hours per week. the other jobs making up rooms, cleaning, working in the laundry, and in the kitchen pay much lower.

so 80% of the jobs pay $5 to $10 per hour.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 07 April 2020 - 06:49 AM.

[lanforod]

that’s for customer-facing jobs, where employees must have people skills and English language skills. the other jobs making up rooms, cleaning, working in the laundry, and in the kitchen pay much lower.

 

Yeah that's fair. The lowest I could find on that site is $500/mo for a dishwasher. Lowest entry level job. That's only 6k/yr (ignoring that they typically to a 6-8 mo contract then go home for a break). Compare to the median salary in the Philippines of about $7600 though, it's not that bad. Remember, full board and the lowest position possible. A dishwasher in Canada would only make a little more and still have to pay rent and food!

Change to US flagged and a minimum wage/minimum benefit requirement, cruise fares would jump a lot. They can't compete with Seabourn and Silversea. It would drive them out of business, and affect a lot of supply chain and related tourism.

[Victoria Watcher]

there is no doubt the jobs pay higher and conditions are better than the workers might earn in their home countries.

[kenmuir]

If they're US-flagged, they have to use US crews in addition to paying US wages, and the ship has to be constructed in the US.  That's why there's only a single ship operated by any of the major cruise lines, NCL's MS Pride of America, which does Hawai'i sailings only.

 

It's not entirely about taxes, but partially due to laws, because we know how enthusiastic governments are about keeping their laws current for the modern era.  To be fair though, it's mostly all about taxes.

 

Out of curiosity, if they did, would they have to pay the wage rate for the state that the headquarters are located in, or the ship's home port?

[LJ]

Glad I got the conversation started. The US can pass/change any amount of laws they like. They could change the laws requiring US crews, they could make it only for taxation purposes. Lots of different ways they could make this happen. Cruising would become more expensive and fewer ships would probably be sailing but you have to imagine everything is going to change. Fewer airlines for sure.

[m3m]

If the cruise ships were American flagged. They’d have no reason to stop in Victoria as there would be no cabotage restrictions.

[Victoria Watcher]

More than half of the passengers and crew aboard an Aurora Expeditions cruise to Antarctica have tested positive for coronavirus, the ship’s operator said Tuesday.

Of the 217 people tested aboard the Greg Mortimer cruise ship, 128 came back positive for COVID-19, while 89 tested negative, the Aurora Expeditions cruise line confirmed. The Australia-based company said all passengers and crew that have tested positive did not have fevers, and were asymptomatic as of Tuesday.



https://www.foxnews....mer-coronavirus

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 April 2020 - 06:22 AM.

[johnk2]

I'm not so sure that's a good thing if that were to happen. It could result of that is a doubling or worse of cruise fares. That helps American/Canadians who want to work on cruise ships. The typical Malay who works on a cruise ship would get a bonanza of a pay rise. It drives business to cruise lines that don't need to pay US equivalent wages. There isn't a need for US wages on cruise lines, in my opinion unless you would rather those jobs went to Americans and Canadians, but that doesn't work well for the global nature of the cruise business.

deleted, redundant post

Edited by johnk2, 08 April 2020 - 10:44 AM.

[Bernard]

The 1920 Jones Act in the US requires all of the above and the ships are required to be constructed in the US.   The way cruise companies get around it is by having a non-US stop on their interary.    Vancouver's cruise business is completely based on this.   Victoria is now a port of call because it allows Alaska cruises to leave from Seattle instead.   

[Victoria Watcher]

if Vancouver builds another terminal at delta port Vancouver downtown can easily replace Victoria as the port of call for some Seattle departures.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 April 2020 - 10:56 AM.

[Bernard]

if Vancouver builds another terminal at delta port Vancouver downtown can easily replace Victoria as the port of call for some Seattle departures.

It could, but I believe the location if Victoria is more convenient port of call on the route to Alaska and it could be cheaper

[Victoria Watcher]

Most cruise ships are not registered where they do business, in the USA and Europe, but offshore in places like Panama and the Bahamas.

 

The industry does that for two reasons - it saves a fortune in tax, and it means that they don't have to follow American or European labour laws. This allow the companies to recruit cheap workers from developing countries, pay them less, and work them harder.

 

Now, however, avoiding taxes and hiring cheap foreign workers doesn't look so clever - the cruise line industry was specifically not included in the US's business bailout schemes. The industry may be in dire straits, but it is crying in the dark.

 

And even if governments wanted to help, which they don't appear to, as Prof Muller points out: "It is hard to give a tax break if they pay no taxes".

 

Not only that, but many of the destinations loved by their passengers are not missing the cruise liners very much, if at all. As Prof Sheela Agarwal, from Plymouth University's department of tourism and hospitality, puts it: "No one is willing to bail them out because of their tax avoidance, but also because of the negative impacts they have at their destinations... they contribute very little to the local economy."

 

Cruise ships are notorious for depositing thousands of tourists in crowded cities who, Prof Agarwal says "spend very little, look around the place for five or six hours with a packed lunch, and then go back on board for dinner".

So, can the industry recover from this crisis? Well there are some good signs amidst all this gloom.

 

"Tourists have very short memories," says Prof Agarwal. "This is like when a terror attack affects a destination. Look at the attacks in Paris and Brussels - three months maximum [fall in visitor numbers], and they were back to normal."

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/...siness-52182509

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 10 April 2020 - 12:01 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

Tam also told CBC News that one of the features of the new normal will be a lack of cruise ships in Canadian waters.

"We'll postpone the cruise ships coming into Canada and re-evaluate it," she said. "The re-evaluation is July, but let's just say that can't happen here, because the introduction would be huge. You'd have thousands of passengers coming into port."


https://www.cbc.ca/n...virus-1.5548285

[Victoria Watcher]

“Other than the above referenced service from Galveston, Miami, and Port Canaveral, all other North American and Australian homeport cruises will be canceled through August 31,” the press release reads.

Carnival also canceled several planned sailings on the Carnival Spirit, including those from Seattle to Alaska, those from Vancouver to Hawaii, and a trans-Pacific sailing between Hawaii and Australia.


https://www.foxnews....-voyages-august

[Rob Randall]

Norwegian Cruise Line says there's 'substantial doubt' about its ability to continue as a 'going concern'

 

https://www.cnbc.com...ce=twitter|main

[Mike K.]

Might be a good time to follow the stock of this one. I imagine there’ll be an acquisition in the not too distant future if their projection is as dire as it seems.

Now that Carnival is Saudi-backed my guess would be they’ll wait for the stock to fall further and snap it up in its entirety, or a controlling stake.