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Victoria All-Candidate Forums: Your Impressions


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#101 Sue Woods

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 01:51 PM

[quote name='jklymak'][quote name='Ms. Woods']
A) A hand-written (crucial in my view) application letter
Are you trying to disenfranchise the whole medical profession?
In general the idea of an application or exam sounds OK, but has some pretty basic problems. Who would "grade" such an application? I suppose a test of some sort with basic multiple-choice questions could be relatively objective, but how would you do this? Have candidates show up on exam day or would it be a take-home exam, in which case anyone could fill it out for them? And who writes the exam questions?

Anyway, I'm extremely dubious that someone can get 200 signatures if they have significant "emotional and mental impediments".

Limiting participation based on failed previous attempts hardly seems appropriate.[/quote]

I did not mean a physician needs to write a hand-written note. Did that really come across that way?

As for 200 signatures - some candidates get under 1,000 votes every time- so anyone can get 200 signatures. Two candidates did not live in the CRD and one never made a public appearance and got 800 votes - so anything is possible.

My idea is not a muliple choice questionaire but similiar to an application form for a passport or citizenship. Do people get to cheat on those. No, because it's a legal document and there are penalities for doing so. And not an "exam room" - but if you cannot fill out a form at the City Hall for an hour at a time of your choosing/convenience - then I guess you should not be trying to get elected to represent a city of 80,000 people.

A personalized letter would show your understanding of the process/responsibilities and a willingness to disclose and participate in some level of scutiny. IE: If you cannot prove you live in the area - if you cannot get 500 signatures from local taxpayers - if you have run before more then 4 times and never increase your vote count to above 1,000 then you have failed to make a case and need to move aside to give new people a chance.

I know this sounds harsh. Maybe I am wrong - and the system is not so much broken as it is tiresome.

#102 mat

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 02:20 PM

Whatever is considered, and actually implemented, it must take into account basic democratic principles. I am all in favour of trying to avoid the fiasco of the recent election but will fight tooth and nail any new regulation that disenfranchises a part of the population from running for office. The issues in my mind that need addressing are:

1: Ensuring candidates are utterly serious, want to win, and understand the consequences of victory - the time involved and necessary sacrifices (loss of a job or putting a business in trust over ethical conflicts etc.) in being a councilor or mayor.

2: Ensuring candidates actually understand the limits of council and city administration - what can and cannot be accomplished.

Some possible solutions:

1: Candidates must deposit a fund ($1000 ?) - held in trust by the City Election officer for the duration of the election, to be returned post election win or lose. The amount would default to the city if the candidate drops out without a valid reason (medical, family etc.), fails to attend a set number of city run candidate meetings or fails to act in an appropriate manner during those, and other, meetings.

2: Raising the number of nominators is the fairest and easiest method and could include this idea from some European municipalities. A set number of primary nominators is required (10?) who are also financially liable if the candidate fails the above rules - secondary nominators are also required (50-100?) who can only nominate one candidate, but are not liable.

Note on the deposit fund - as that might prevent homeless and low income from participating the rules should allow an institution or group to finance a candidate.

3: Candidates must take, and pass, a civics test before nomination. The city should put on classes and provide material for any resident to participate.

4: Candidates must prove they are medically and mentally capable of assuming office through a city appointed medical doctor/pschrink.

#103 jklymak

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 04:41 PM


I did not mean a physician needs to write a hand-written note. Did that really come across that way?


I was just kidding, but it did come across as you wanted a hand-written letter, and that penmanship would count. Most of the rest of your criteria are subjective, and it still begs the question who would qualify candidates on the basis of those criteria?

As for 200 signatures - some candidates get under 1,000 votes every time- so anyone can get 200 signatures. Two candidates did not live in the CRD and one never made a public appearance and got 800 votes - so anything is possible.


I would argue that getting 200 votes is easier than getting 200 signatures. However, if anyone were to say the limit should be 1000 signatures I would not argue.

My idea is not a muliple choice questionaire but similiar to an application form for a passport or citizenship.


Could work, but one would have to be careful about the information tested to make sure it was pretty a-political. Which is a little difficult to do for a political job...

A personalized letter would show your understanding of the process/responsibilities and a willingness to disclose and participate in some level of scutiny.


Again, you'd need some objective criteria for determining if a letter "passed" this test.

#104 Sue Woods

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 06:16 PM

I was just kidding, but it did come across as you wanted a hand-written letter, and that penmanship would count. Most of the rest of your criteria are subjective, and it still begs the question who would qualify candidates on the basis of those criteria?


I missed that the first time :) .

As well as good penmanship - I alos think we should not let anyone who is left handed run for lokal office - or haz more thne 2 spelling mestakes in there applikacion lettre.

#105 mat

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 06:44 PM

I missed that the first time :) .

As well as good penmanship - I alos think we should not let anyone who is left handed run for lokal office - or haz more thne 2 spelling mestakes in there applikacion lettre.


discrimination against left handed candidates? that will haunt you later MS. Woods! :)

We need to push the civics education idea - it would tie into promoting municipal voting (get that % up - 27% turnout is ludicrous, there is no mandate to lead from that)
AP article on US elect knowledge of civics, history and economics - the score was low, and I chuckled over the general public scoring better than the people they elected.

#106 jklymak

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 08:52 PM

I missed that the first time :) .

As well as good penmanship - I alos think we should not let anyone who is left handed run for lokal office - or haz more thne 2 spelling mestakes in there applikacion lettre.


Oh, now I see, you are just trying to disenfranchise me! Hey, at least I live in city limits...

#107 Sue Woods

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:22 PM

Oh, now I see, you are just trying to disenfranchise me! Hey, at least I live in city limits...


Left-handed people who live within city limits will still not pass the test unless they are prepared to host all-candidate meetings in their rec rooms.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and myself being right-handed (aka normal), I think it would be good rule.

Besides - its your choice to be left-handed. You can always rectify that. But nooooo...

#108 mat

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:43 PM

What about us semi-dextrous, ambiguous handed? I write with the right, shoot hockey left, kick soccer left and tend to vote that direction - are we to be left (or righted) out? ;)

#109 Sue Woods

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:47 PM

What about us semi-dextrous, ambiguous handed? I write with the right, shoot hockey left, kick soccer left and tend to vote that direction - are we to be left (or righted) out? ;)


Definately left out.
Nothing but non-conforming trouble makers.

#110 Rob Randall

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 10:59 PM

There's an interesting agenda item for the next Committee of the Whole this Thursday: "Changes to Election Processes".

#111 Barra

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 03:55 PM

2: Ensuring candidates actually understand the limits of council and city administration - what can and cannot be accomplished.

3: Candidates must take, and pass, a civics test before nomination. The city should put on classes and provide material for any resident to participate.


A month or so prior to the nomination process, the city sponsored an information session for potential civic candidates, to inform them of what is involved in the job of being a City Councillor. Having served previously as a Councillor, I didn't really need to attend, but I was curious who would show up. There were several people planning to run in other municipalities, and 4 or 5 who were planning to run in Victoria (as I recall, there was myself, Tim VanAlstine, Joseph Boutillier, and one or two others).
I was surprised how few people took advantage of this opportunity.
Pieta VanDyke

#112 Rob Randall

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 10:42 PM

A really dumb op-ed piece in the TC:

Anyone should be able to run for council


By Iain Hunter, Times ColonistFebruary 7, 2009

Victoria councillors are making it more difficult for people to run for their jobs. Fair enough, but they should say so.

They'll never convince me that there's any other motive behind the increase in the number of nominators people need to run for council and the deposit fee that they must put up.

They'll never convince me that they're only trying to discourage frivolous candidates from coming forward or to make it easier for the people casting ballots to appreciate whatever issues matter.

As one for whom frivolity obviously has considerable attraction, I see no danger to the democratic process or its outcome in frivolous candidates. Some people seem to think that electing city councillors is as serious a business as choosing a pope; as if dealing in sewage is as important as dealing in souls.

Those who argue that having too many candidates putting forward too many ideas diverts attention from really important issues are making some pretty arrogant assumptions. They're also showing contempt for the intelligence of electors.

Isn't it healthy for our system of governments when election campaigns bring out issues that those who govern us would rather keep hidden? Isn't it healthy, at least for public order, that those who bawl slogans as part of mobs at other times be allowed a platform once every few years in which to speak directly to voters?

All-candidates meetings should be just that. The convenience of television producers or the size of stages in school auditoriums shouldn't dictate who shall speak.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that convicted criminals or the certifiably insane should be able to stand for election to municipal office -- there's time enough for them to become either before their term runs out -- but if you can vote, you should be able to stand.

Even, like that charming lady who ran the last time in Victoria, on your head. That must afford, at least, a different perspective.

I think all the homeless people on our streets should run for council. They mightn't find a place to live, but they might find, in city hall, a place to work -- which would discourage a few I know from running.

I don't think the age of prospective candidates should work against them any more than their sexual peculiarities or that they have senseless pursuits like golf. There was a time when being an owner of property was a prerequisite for candidates because that implied education and intelligence -- factors that have long since ceased to matter in our parliaments and city halls.

When the fourth Druk Gyelpo of Bhutan decided to democratize his country, it was decided that candidates for parliament should have a university education. Otherwise, it was argued, the country would "suffer from the erratic decisions of unsuitable elected leaders" and because those successful "must be able to understand and analyze voluminous reports and proposals" and "conceive original thoughts and ideas."

How many Victoria councillors, I wonder, are capable of all that?

In Iran, the Guardian Council, dominated by clerics, none of whom is noted for standing on his head or even smiling, has disqualified thousands of declared candidates, especially all the women who wanted to run in 2004.

There, in a twist that must appeal to some on Victoria council, two years in parliament guarantees candidacy.

I'd like to bring back the practice in ancient Greece where election was by lottery to ensure that ordinary citizens had a chance against well-born, influential candidates -- the sort who live in the Uplands today and have a pithy quotation for any occasion.

I'd also like to bring back the ancient Greeks' practice of ostracism. New Victorians, like old Athenians, should be able to scratch on potsherds the names of elected officials who don't live up to expectations and the "winner" when votes are counted would be banished from the city for 10 years.

Those sourpusses on council should recognize that their city hall looks as if it came from Disneyland. They should all put on Mickey Mouse ears and practise frivolity.

And maybe the only qualification for candidates should be an ability to stand on one's head.
© Copyright © The Victoria Times Colonist

[Incumbent Councillors will] never convince me that they're only trying to discourage frivolous candidates from coming forward or to make it easier for the people casting ballots to appreciate whatever issues matter.


This is bullshit. I've talked about this with several of them and they would prefer to be elected on their record and values, not simply because a voter recognized their name amid a long list of unknowns. They want good, qualified competition so that everyone can have broad-based, constructive, meaningful debates instead of dozens of screaming, single-issue time-wasters.

As one for whom frivolity obviously has considerable attraction, I see no danger to the democratic process or its outcome in frivolous candidates.


A few fringe candidates can liven up a race. Everyone loved Mr. Peanut and Mr. Floatie made people think when he mulled candidacy. But the overflow of candidates who weren't serious about being elected turned off many voters. I saw potential voters walk out of all candidates meetings and talked to others who thought wading through the list of candidates looking for the qualified ones to be a time-consuming chore. I hate to think of those who thought, 'what a joke--screw it.' Is this how we encourage higher voter turnout?

I'd like to bring back the practice in ancient Greece where election was by lottery to ensure that ordinary citizens had a chance against well-born, influential candidates


This may have a grain of truth to it. Think of the great work accomplished by the randomly-selected Citzens' Assembly on Electoral Reform.

#113 Sue Woods

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 11:14 PM

I guess Iain Hunter was trying to be clever - can't believe he was trying to be serious - but in spite of whatever motivated him the editorial was just plain stupid.

And insulting to the serious 2005 and 2008 Vic city candidates.

#114 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:40 PM

It's not the first time Hunter has come up with really bizarre articles that verge on burlesque (IMO). Maybe the T-C thinks this attracts readers, entertains them, or goads the easily riled, soothes the tut-tutters?

It strikes me as really old and tired, without a grain of freshness. If Hunter keeps it up, he's in danger of slipping into a very curious dotage...
When you buy a game, you buy the rules. Play happens in the space between the rules.

#115 Holden West

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:51 PM

^A Gorde Hunter for the 21st Century?
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

 



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