124 replies to this topic

[eseedhouse]

But it is purpose built, and it is a partnership between a recreation center and library. Someone did their homework in figuring out the needs of the neighbourhood, which is predominantly working class, lower income and families. I think they did an admirable job of answering those needs. The litmus test? A bunch of teenagers in backwards ball-caps and falling down jeans grouped excitedly at a table with a librarian. When was the last time you saw that downtown?

I see it quite often even though I work in an office that is hidden away out of site.

Perhaps I am too strong a critic of the current central library, I sure don't mean to denegrate the steps forward it has made. But if the citizens don't demand more, I doubt we will ever get it.

If you think that the items you cited are only at Saanich Centennial then you should go around to some of the other branches. We have a gaming center and a teen books area at Central as well, for instance.

The Central Library needs replacing, in my opinion (which is only my opinion and not that of the Library or of Local 410).

The members of CUPE local 410 want to give better Library service, and we have chosen to recommend some candidates whom we feel will help achieve this end. It's up to you to decide if our recommendations are good ones, but I am confident that the people we have recommended will be supporters of good Library service if that's important to you.

[Caramia]

Well since another group did send out an email to each candidate and asking how important a Central Library is to them, I would rather read all the candidate's answers for myself. Perhaps you can cut and paste them and make them available to your members?

In fact, dv2020.ca has just started posting the results of a question about a library on their website. Not all candidates have responded yet, the questionnaire was only sent a few days ago, but out of those who have, who you didn't interview, I'll extract the relevant responses.

The question:

How hard will you work on issues such as building a new and up-to-date Central Library, and encouraging institutions such as the Art Gallery, or University to come downtown?

Rob Reid

This is a great opportunity to breathe life into our downtown. These ideas need to be given as much priority as social issues we have been addressing. Quality of life in Victoria can grow with projects/ developments that define “our culture”. I will work with the PCC to guarantee that their properties are used productively to enhance our downtown core and achieve their objectives.

Susan Woods:

A new Central Library is long overdue. The libraries in both Vancouver and Seattle are not only modern informational facilities but have become tourist attractions in their own right. I would also commit to expand downtown university campuses and encourage both the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria and the Maritime Museum of BC in their quest for new, purpose-built facilities.

Robert Randall:

I support a new Centennial Square Library. It's been ten years, we need to set things in motion soon. The art gallery has been fighting for a Downtown location for years now as well. We need a wide range of private and public partners to make this happen and to show that Downtown would benefit from a new gallery as other cities around the world know very well. It's good for residents, visitors and business.

Joseph Boutiellier

The quality educational, cultural and historical attractions of Victoria have proved to be the most prosperous and valuable of our downtown investments, and we must continue this legacy with continued priority for the development of new facilities and amenities for residents and visitors. These proposals should be top priorities among tourism and economic-development initiatives.

Pieta Van Dyke

I support locating the Central Library as part of the Centennial Square re-development, which has been on the books for a long time. I also support the desire of the Art Gallery to move downtown, but as they require a 50,000 sq. ft stand alone building, which should also have outdoor landscaping/sculpture court and parking, finding space large enough will be a challenge. I do not feel that there is sufficient space next to the Crystal Gardens and do not support building it on the Cridge Park/lawn bowling sites. My preference is to revive the 1994 proposal to locate the Art Gallery on the south shore of Rock Bay. An architecturally outstanding gallery on this site would add to the tourism appeal of the city, and would serve as a “target” to move pedestrians north through downtown, the design district and Chinatown, serving to enliven these parts of downtown. The Art Gallery also has a role to play in mounting a capital campaign, as the city has very limited funds to put towards this project.

If you let me know who else you ignored in your interview process, I'll see what I can dig up for you.

Actually I didn't see Hugh Kruzel on your list yet on his site among his short list of 6 beliefs he says:

4. public libraries: Victoria is a reading
town, however, investment is out of
sync with needs. Ask the other candidates
when was the last time they used any library.

[Sue Woods]

I am happy with the work we did and stand by the decisions made by our executive committee. I think anyone or any independant organization has the right to endorse anyone they want for any reason they want. I think the candidates we've endorsed are strong supporters of Library service and deserve your vote.

If you disagree that's fine too.

Disgaree is not the correct word. This is a clear case of misleading 23,000 union and other voters (since the VLC list was made public) - BY NOT INFORMING THEM THAT YOU ONLY INTERVIEWED CERTAIN CANDIDATES!

I don't buy this hand wringing explanation that you dont have enough people to vet every candidate running in the city of Victoria!

[eseedhouse]

As a group of independent candidates endeavouring to offer non-partisan representation at City Hall, we wish to clarify that none of us were approached by the VLC about our positions on worker’s rights or keeping vital infrastructure in public hands. We were not interviewed for an opportunity to be included on the “cheat sheets”.

I don't understand the complaint. The VLC surely has no obligation to seek out every possible candidate in the area! The VLC meets in public and if one of the candidates had been at the September meeting they would have known the process and how to have their candidates vetted. The process was explained and approved by the members at that meeting, and the VLC allows guests to attend it's sessions.

I am sure there are some good candidates on the list given, but the fact is that they did not approach the VLC and seek their endorsement, as they easily could have. I know of no law or even principal of morality that requires any body that may wish to endorse candidates for a position to seek out every concievable candidate for that position before recommending anyone.

Will Susan and her group also complain to the press if the Chamber of Commerce doesn't vet every concievable candidate before endorsing any? Personally I think the Chamber has the pefect right to decide what their process will be, and the VLC has too.

That process was authorized in the case of the VLC by an open vote at an open meeting which any of the candidates listed could have attended. Many potential candidates did attend the September meeting, but so far as I know Susan did not, though I could be wrong about that.

I know some of the candidates on that list and even think they would make good council members, but I recognize no obligation to seek out every possible candidate before making my choices.

[Bernard]

eseedhouse, I have no problem with CUPE 410 endorsing the VLC set of endorsements and take it for what it is.

I understand the VLC process and it is about endorsing candidates that are supportive of the labour movement, collective bargaining and set of currently popular views of the leadership of the establishment left (yes, I know that is leading but it is the best shorthand I can come up with)

What is not clear or obvious from the VLC process is anything to do with libraries. Certainly the VLC endorsed candidate support the GVPL, but then you would be hard pressed to find any candidate that dislikes the libraries.

The biggest supporters and people active on library issues were not endorsed. The candidates had no idea CUPE 410 would call the VLC set of endorsements would automatically mean this is the slate to vote for the library.

If CUPE 410 were to state "these are the candidates we endorse because they support CUPE 410" then this would be a much more accurate portrayal of the situation.

CUPE 410 is there for the workers, not the public or the benefit of the library. CUPE 410 may do things that are beneficial for the public and library, but that is not the primary purpose of the union. Much of the labour movement has confused benefits for the members of the union with benefits to the public. Telling people to vote for a slate of candidates because it would good for CUPE 410 members is perfectly fine, claiming that voting for the interests of organized labour is good for the library does not follow.

[Caramia]

Will Susan and her group also complain to the press if the Chamber of Commerce doesn't vet every concievable candidate before endorsing any? Personally I think the Chamber has the pefect right to decide what their process will be, and the VLC has too.

The Chamber of Commerce sent out an email questionnaire to all candidates who provided an email address. They then posted the results of this questionnaire on their website. This was part of the homework they did in order to inform their members. If a candidate chose not to answer, so be it.

Your president made misleading statements about his process to the press. He claimed a more well researched product than he actually delivered, and he got caught. Your members deserve to know that.

To help you understand, an analogy... it isn't a sin to label a can "salmon" and it isn't a sin to offer consumers farmed salmon, but if it isn't wild, you don't get to label it "wild salmon." If you do, and you get called on it, people loose trust in your labels.

[eseedhouse]

Disgaree is not the correct word. This is a clear case of misleading 23,000 union and other voters (since the VLC list was made public) - BY NOT INFORMING THEM THAT YOU ONLY INTERVIEWED CERTAIN CANDIDATES!

The VLC interviewed every candidate who made themselves know to them. That you did not make yourself known to them is not their responsibility.

I don't buy this hand wringing explanation that you dont have enough people to vet every candidate running in the city of Victoria!

I don't think the use of emotionally loaded language like "hand wringing" strengthens your point. If anyone is wringing their hands it seems to be you. The VLC followed a process approved by their delegates at a public meeting which you could have attended had you chosen to. A number of other candidates did choose to attend.

Had you submitted an application I have every reason to suppose that you would have been interviewed.

I am speaking for myself here, not for the VLC, to which I am a delegate, but not a member of their executive board.

[eseedhouse]

CUPE 410 is there for the workers, not the public or the benefit of the library. CUPE 410 may do things that are beneficial for the public and library, but that is not the primary purpose of the union. Much of the labour movement has confused benefits for the members of the union with benefits to the public. Telling people to vote for a slate of candidates because it would good for CUPE 410 members is perfectly fine, claiming that voting for the interests of organized labour is good for the library does not follow.

I do not follow your logic. If CUPE Local 410 believes that certain people will be good for Library service if they are elected then it is certainly our right to make this known to those who may be interested. We reached such an opinion through our own process and are making those concusions known to such members of the public who may be interested.

We have an interest in improving Library service and, in a democracy, a right to our opinions as to what may be done to improve that service and a right to make this opinion known, which is what we have done.

It is rather insulting of you to suggest that we have "confused benefits for the members of the union with benefits to the public". I don't think we have done any such thing and you've provided no evidence to suggest that we have.

Nor are we "telling" anyone to vote for any one. That is loaded and misleading language which implies coercion which does not exist. We have merely made it clear that we support certain candidates, as is our right. We think that people can "Vote Library" by supporting these candidates and are informing people of this belief.

If a candidate wishes our support get in touch with us and ask us to support you and give us your reasons. We may agree with you and I can update our web page in a minute.

[Bernard]

Many first time candidates did not know about the VLC endorsement process so could not avail themselves of it. Blaming them for not knowing is really not very nice. The VLC could have made the process much more public than it is.

Meanwhile, the recommendation sheets are not going to make much of a difference, of the 23 000 distributed, only about 5% will be actively used, or about 1150 voters will make use of them. This would be about 350 people in Victoria and 500 in Saanich. 5% use of the card is a high estimate. Less than one in five union members will vote in the local election - keep in mind there are about 10% of union members not eligible to vote because they are not Canadians, in some professions it is higher than that.

The two defining factors of likelihood of voting are age and house ownership. Seniors that own their own house are by far the most likely to vote.

I have thought for years the VLC does a piss poor job of getting the word out about the list of endorsements. Most of us in the city are not members of unions and in the past it was very hard to find out what the VLC list was. This time at least the VLC has them online, but the promotion of the list is weak. In 2005 it was virtually impossible to find the list.

Phillipe Lucas felt that the lack of a VLC endorsement last time is what cost him the council race, but he came very close to be elected.

The only candidate you may benefit from the VLC endorsement in Victoria this time is John Luton.

There are very few people I think would really benefit from the endorsement.

[mat]

After reading all the posts, and the reasoned replies by eseedhouse to clarify the position, and process of the endorsements (plus Caramia's excellent post on candidate policy statements who were left off the VLC list) maybe it's time to back off from blame - and look to a solution.

It seems clear the VLC made a mistake in endorsing certain candidates over others, without vetting all of them - then publishing the list to its members without clarifying how it was generated.

Would the VLC, on its own initiative, email as many members as possible, and possibly try for a local media article, to explain the concerns of other candidates?

That would not detract from the endorsements - but it would allow Union members, and interested parties, to understand the list. It would also immediately prove to VLC members, other candidates, and the public that the Labour Coalition believes in fairness, and is not above reproach.

[eseedhouse]

Many first time candidates did not know about the VLC endorsement process so could not avail themselves of it.

The VLC has been meeting monthly in Victoria for many years. It holds a labour day picnic every year. If a new candidate doesn't know about the VLC then they presumably don't care very much about labour or their support.

Blaming them for not knowing is really not very nice.

But blaming the VLC for not knowing about them is OK? However I haven't "blamed" anyone, that is just your loaded word.

The VLC could have made the process much more public than it is.

You may be right. We all live and learn. The press chooses to mostly ignore the labour council and labour in general in Victoria, though there are sometimes reporters in attendance. The council has now started a web site, an initiative I had some very minor part in bringing about. The fact remains that their meetings are regular and public and any candidate who really wanted an endorsement from labour could have come to it's meetings.

[Bernard]

I do not follow your logic. If CUPE Local 410 believes that certain people will be good for Library service if they are elected then it is certainly our right to make this known to those who may be interested. We reached such an opinion through our own process and are making those concusions known to such members of the public who may be interested.

We have an interest in improving Library service and, in a democracy, a right to our opinions as to what may be done to improve that service and a right to make this opinion known, which is what we have done.

It is rather insulting of you to suggest that we have "confused benefits for the members of the union with benefits to the public". I don't think we have done any such thing and you've provided no evidence to suggest that we have.

Nor are we "telling" anyone to vote for any one. That is loaded and misleading language which implies coercion which does not exist. We have merely made it clear that we support certain candidates, as is our right. We think that people can "Vote Library" by supporting these candidates and are informing people of this belief.

I am not disagreeing with you about your right to endorse anyone you like, and you can do it in anyway you like, I just think you do not do yourselves any favours misleading people.

To suggest that your list of endorsements is the set of best candidates for the libraries ignores how the VLC came to the decision of the candidates.

I made the point about about public sector unions having confused benefits for the members with benefits for the public. I did not single out CUPE 410, I make it as a general assertion of public sector unions and could go on for a very long time in a Chomskyeque recital of examples.

The BCGEU of CUPE do not exist to act in the best of interests of the public. Acting in the best interests of the public would mean acting against the best interests of the union membership and the leadership of the union has a legal fiduciary obligation to look out for the best interests of the members.

Public sector unions also do not exist to provide public services, that is the role of government. You can replace CUPE 410 with chamber in most of what I say and it should apply as well.

I have no problem with public sector unions vigorously looking out for their members, but it bugs me when they come out and say are speaking for the public interest.

The one best example of public sector unions doing what was in their members interests and not the public was Operation Solidarity in 1983.

[eseedhouse]

I would just like to add that the last four months, July to October, have been the busiest months in the Library's history. In percentage terms we are up by double figures over the previous busiest July-Oct.

It seems that people in Victoria are voting with their feet.

[Bernard]

The VLC has been meeting monthly in Victoria for many years. It holds a labour day picnic every year. If a new candidate doesn't know about the VLC then they presumably don't care very much about labour or their support.

But blaming the VLC for not knowing about them is OK? However I haven't "blamed" anyone, that is just your loaded word.

You may be right. We all live and learn. The press chooses to mostly ignore the labour council and labour in general in Victoria, though there are sometimes reporters in attendance. The council has now started a web site, an initiative I had some very minor part in bringing about. The fact remains that their meetings are regular and public and any candidate who really wanted an endorsement from labour could have come to it's meetings.

If you are not a member of a union in Greater Victoria, it is really, really hard to find out about the VLC or the activities of the labour movement.

I have had a complaint for years that the labour movement does not spend enough time in the community active with just regular community events. There is not the sort of community charity work that you saw from the private sector unions in the past going on. Many a small town in BC has pool or rec centre because the IWA pushed for it.

I see nothing from the labour movement in such things as youth sports (I remember the PPWC Red Army in Ladysmith in the past), Scouts/Guiding, bringing out volunteers to help with the Gorge clean up, etc......

The public sector labour movement is good for its members, strongly political for the big P politics but missing from the community.

I used blamed earlier because the VLC more or less came out and said as much. Sorry if the term offended you, that was not my intent, though I did want to highlight the shifting of the onus by the VLC onto the candidates.

If the VLC wants to matter, it has to get out into the community and be something people see on a regular basis.

Mailing out 250 or so notes to all the candidates informing them of the VLC and that the VLC endorses people would have been a trivial task a couple people could have done in one evening.

You have the right to go about your process in anyway you like, I offer my criticisms in the hopes that it will mean you have a better process in the future in specific and that the VLC in general will become more active in the community.

[eseedhouse]

I am not disagreeing with you about your right to endorse anyone you like, and you can do it in anyway you like, I just think you do not do yourselves any favours misleading people.

To suggest that your list of endorsements is the set of best candidates for the libraries ignores how the VLC came to the decision of the candidates.

Now you are castigating us for what we "implied" rather than what we said! I will only take responsibility for what we actually said, if you don't mind.

The one best example of public sector unions doing what was in their members interests and not the public was Operation Solidarity in 1983.

Talk about bringing in something from left field! As a matter of fact today economists generally agree that the actions of the Social Credit government of the day caused a bad "made in B.C." recession and hurt the people of B.C. rather badly. Had the solidarity movement been more successful that harm would likely have been ameliorated quite significantly.

[Bernard]

Talk about bringing in something from left field! As a matter of fact today economists generally agree that the actions of the Social Credit government of the day caused a bad "made in B.C." recession and hurt the people of B.C. rather badly. Had the solidarity movement been more successful that harm would likely have been ameliorated quite significantly.

As soon as the BCGEU got their deal the labour movement shut down operation solidarity. The long list of issues the labour movement and social activists wanted were abandoned as soon as the BCGEU members got what they wanted.

At the time I was horrified, since then I believe it was the right decision. I recently re-read Bryan Palmer's 1987 book "Solidarity:The rise and fall of an opposition." I was young and foolish at the time and thought the revolution was coming.

[eseedhouse]

If you are not a member of a union in Greater Victoria, it is really, really hard to find out about the VLC or the activities of the labour movement.

Er, try entering "victoria labour council" into your browser's seach window. The new site is now the second hit in google.

[Bernard]

Er, try entering "victoria labour council" into your browser's seach window. The new site is now the second hit in google.

You have to know that is how the labour movement is locally organized. You have to know that is what it is called. I pay attention to the labour movement so I know about it, though I have been unimpressed with the web presence for sometime. The new site looks better.

The labour movement can be very confusing to outsiders. How is some one supposed to know what is a rat union and not? How are people supposed to understand the random numbers instead of names - CUPE 410 being an example?

If you are an activist within the labour movement it all makes sense, if you are outside of it it is all confusing.

If the labour movement wants to gain support and gain more public acceptance, it has to come out of this shell it has created over the last generation.

[eseedhouse]

You have to know that is how the labour movement is locally organized. You have to know that is what it is called. I pay attention to the labour movement so I know about it, though I have been unimpressed with the web presence for sometime. The new site looks better.

It is hit number two on the seach string "victoria labour" in google.

The labour movement can be very confusing to outsiders. How is some one supposed to know what is a rat union and not? How are people supposed to understand the random numbers instead of names - CUPE 410 being an example?

Well, is http://victorialabour.ca/ a random number?

If you know there is a labour movement in B.C. and have read the papers you surely know there is a "B.C. Federation of Labour" and google gives http://www.bcfed.com/ as a first hit.

Likewise if you seach "cupe bc" in google the first hit is http://www.cupe.bc.ca/

So I don't get what you mean by random numbers. Now I could spend days criticising the labour movement, but they definitely are becoming a presence on the net in Canada.

[Sue Woods]

self edit