872 replies to this topic

[rjag]

Common problem is that people can't see beyond themselves.  If they don't want a service, then surely no one must want a service.   The comments above are clear examples.   "Here is a list of things I don't use, therefore they are useless and a waste of money".  

 

Like the folks that want to ban Uber and Airbnb in Victoria? 

[aastra]

 

We face a challenging task: how can we continue to provide the broad scope of approximately 200 services and over 200 capital infrastructure projects that our citizens value, while meeting the demands of citizens and businesses for increased or new services? And how can we do this in a way that keeps people’s ability to pay their taxes top of mind?

 

What Victoria really needs is an extended development boom that would fatten the city's coffers like crazy and usher in a period of general prosperity. Somebody get to work on making that happen.

[Bingo]

What Victoria really needs is an extended development boom that would fatten the city's coffers like crazy and usher in a period of general prosperity. Somebody get to work on making that happen.

 

First you need to make the city attractive to developers, and as long as you have those tower cranes cluttering up the skyline that's not likely to happen.

[LeoVictoria]

Significant public engagement does not necessarily equate to what the majority of taxpayers want. Stuff like this is small vocal groups topic de jour that resonates with council because it feeds their audience. 

 

The mistake here is the idea that things that are good for society and things that the majority wants are the same.  Government is there primarily to do the former, not the latter.

[Mike K.]

Government overwhelmingly does what is good for the politicians who govern for three or four years. The serious stuff, like replacing sewage pipes, water mains and repairing potholes is undertaken in a piecemeal fashion as it's not sexy, vote-generating stuff.

 

Consider that:

- the bridge replacement was not on the radar until the day Fortin got elected

- tent cities were not on the radar until the day Helps got elected

 

Both of those issues dominated each mayor's terms, but before them they weren't even remotely on the general public's radar.

[rjag]

The mistake here is the idea that things that are good for society and things that the majority wants are the same.  Government is there primarily to do the former, not the latter.

 

Thats assuming you accept that some elected official or bureaucrat hiding behind that official has your best interests at heart as opposed to their particular political ideology/agenda. Of course they want you to abdicate personal responsibility to the State....its makes control that much easier 

 

Milton Friedman:

 

 

Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
 

Milton Friedman:

 

 

Indeed, a major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

[FirstTimeHomeCrier]

I hope you're not trying to imply that the "free market" is a democratic system that gives all people what they want or need.

[rjag]

I hope you're not trying to imply that the "free market" is a democratic system that gives all people what they want or need.

 

I'll let my good friend Mr Friedman speak to that....

 

 

 

The world runs on individuals pursuing their self interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn't construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn't revolutionize the automobile industry that way. 
 

 

Nope the free market gives people equal opportunity to make and do something about their situation. Just like you chose to buy where you did and when you did. The antithesis to this is the examples of collapsed socialist diktat as evidenced in East Germany where you would see a line of people outside a store and you would get in line and wait for hours and have no clue why you were lining up. 

 

The happy medium is that in Canada we have some semblance of a social safety net but it shouldnt usurp personal responsibility for those that are capable of making a difference in their life 

[FirstTimeHomeCrier]

I'll let my good friend Mr Friedman speak to that....

 

 

Nope the free market gives people equal opportunity to make and do something about their situation. Just like you chose to buy where you did and when you did. The antithesis to this is the examples of collapsed socialist diktat as evidenced in East Germany where you would see a line of people outside a store and you would get in line and wait for hours and have no clue why you were lining up. 

 

The happy medium is that in Canada we have some semblance of a social safety net but it shouldnt usurp personal responsibility for those that are capable of making a difference in their life 

 

Sorry, but that is wrong. People are not given equal opportunity. Children born into poverty who are too hungry to concentrate on their schoolwork do not have an equal opportunity for academic acheivement. Cancer patients spending hours in treatment are not given equal opportunity to spend their time and money as they please. People with foreign or African-American-sounding names are not given equal opportunities to attend job interviews when their applications are rejected by hiring managers. Single parents working multiple minimum wage jobs to support their children who therefore have no free time are not given an equal opportunity to pursue educational or professional-development opportunities that might improve their situation. People who cannot afford to live in the cities where they work and must spend several hours a day commuting to work are likewise not given equal opportunities for academic and professional-development opportunities. Young workers who don't have wealthy parents and are paying 70% of their income on rental costs do not have an equal opportunity to save for a downpayment to buy a home. In a world where women running for political office are held to a higher standard than men (see: incompetent Trump elected over Clinton), women do not have an equal opportunity to pursue political careers. Etc.

 

You have every right to believe that the free market is a better system than government intervention, but you do not get to pretend that it is fair, equal, or just.

[Mike K.]

I am an immigrant who arrived in Canada at the age of six, who was brought up by a single mom who worked multiple jobs, and who had to start working from an early age to help out. When we arrived my mom spoke no English, I spoke no English, we had very little money, and for many years many things were an uphill battle. Boy, were they ever.

But I broke through and flourished. As did my immigrant peers. Black. White. Asian. Muslim. Christian. They all persevered because they had “it” in them. What is “it?” Being in this country and waiting for nobody to tell them what they can or can’t do.

Stop labelling everyone with obstacles in their path as a woe-is-me underachiever waiting for government to give him or her a helping hand. Stop insulting us.

However you came to form your opinions on what it means to be marginalized and what it means to have to work hard to break out of your place in society is so dead wrong and belittling, lol.

[Janion Fan]

You have every right to believe that the free market is a better system than government intervention, but you do not get to pretend that it is fair, equal, or just.

 

If you believe, you don't have to pretend. Who are you to say what anyone gets to do or to bestow or withhold rights upon/from them?

[FirstTimeHomeCrier]

I am an immigrant who arrived in Canada at the age of six, who was brought up by a single mom who worked multiple jobs, and who had to start working from an early age to help out. When we arrived my mom spoke no English, I spoke no English, we had very little money, and for many years many things were an uphill battle. Boy, were they ever.

But I broke through and flourished. As did my immigrant peers. Black. White. Asian. Muslim. Christian. They all persevered because they had “it” in them. What is “it?” Being in this country and waiting for nobody to tell them what they can or can’t do.

Stop labelling everyone with obstacles in their path as a woe-is-me underachiever waiting for government to give him or her a helping hand. Stop insulting us.

However you came to form your opinions on what it means to be marginalized and what it means to have to work hard to break out of your place in society is so dead wrong and belittling, lol.

 

I am sorry that you feel insulted. However, your experience is not universal. Being willing to work hard is not always enough. Free market capitalism is not the meritocracy it pretends to be. Financial success is not a measure of one's morality or work ethic. Kind, compassionate, intelligent, hardworking people can and do fail for reasons that are not their fault. Cruel, selfish, lazy, incompetent people can and do succeed for reasons that are not their fault.

 

In free market capitalism, the balance of power is held by those who have met financial success. Those financially successful people are not somehow less corrupt or self-interested than democratically elected representatives.

[lanforod]

We can certainly learn to accept that the world is inherently unfair. There isn't anything we can do to fix the root of that problem (if you consider it a problem).

 

We just try to make it a fairer world for those hit hard by life, and since that usually costs resources, it means those who are doing well pitch in those resources. All the arguing is where that line gets drawn as being too many resources taken to support those. We choose in Canada to elect people to make those decisions. If they make decisions the majority do not agree with, the system should work to replace those people with others who would make popular decisions. There are flaws in every system, of course, and it is impossible to make every person happy.

[jonny]

Unfairness is a given in any system. The typical citizen of Russia, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba, Venezuela and China experiences much more unfairness than the typical Canadian. Real unfairness is not being able to buy a loaf of bread. 

 

People who are against capitalism typically don't understand what a free market is. A free market is simply the free, voluntary, spontaneous, decentralized and open exchange of goods and services between persons. That's it. A free market = freedom. 

 

There's no balance of power. Nobody controls some well organized system. There's no vast conspiracy. It's trillions of random transactions happening spontaneously. Everybody has power in a free market system. I have the power to buy a loaf of bread from you if you and I can agree on a price and I like your product. The free market is a massive flea market. 

[Mike K.]

That's bang on, lanforod, and (edited in) jonny.

 

Canada's social safety net would be even better if we didn't have such a problem with misuse or abuse of the system(s) in place. At some point enough is enough, and I strongly feel that we are nearing that point now, what with the revelations that Canada's wealthiest people and supposed heroes of the working (wo)man are tax cheats of epic proportions and the reality that Helps' "bring it on" attitude towards homelessness is not a sound policy. People are upset, and rightly so.

[Mike K.]

Unfairness is a given in any system. The typical citizen of Russia, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba, Venezuela and China experiences much more unfairness than the typical Canadian. Real unfairness is not being able to buy a loaf of bread. 

 

People who are against capitalism typically don't understand what a free market is. A free market is simply the free, voluntary, spontaneous, decentralized and open exchange of goods and services between persons. That's it. A free market = freedom. 

 

There's no balance of power. Nobody controls some well organized system. There's no vast conspiracy. It's trillions of random transactions happening spontaneously. Everybody has power in a free market system. I have the power to buy a loaf of bread from you if you and I can agree on a price and I like your product. The free market is a massive flea market. 

 

Meanwhile Communism as it existed in the eastern bloc countries was a heavily controlled, manipulated and abused system that served only the people in the upper echelons of power and the minions down on the ground who pledged their allegiance to them.

 

It was a horrible, horrible system.

[jonny]

Meanwhile Communism as it existed in the eastern bloc countries was a heavily controlled, manipulated and abused system that served only the people in the upper echelons of power and the minions down on the ground who pledged their allegiance to them.

 

It was a horrible, horrible system.

 

Communist countries always have an ultra centralized, super wealthy and brutal ruling class. 

 

Governments having too much power has always ended badly. China. Russia. Germany. North Korea. Vietnam. Cuba. Venezuela. 

[rjag]

Sorry, but that is wrong. People are not given equal opportunity. Children born into poverty who are too hungry to concentrate on their schoolwork do not have an equal opportunity for academic acheivement. Cancer patients spending hours in treatment are not given equal opportunity to spend their time and money as they please. People with foreign or African-American-sounding names are not given equal opportunities to attend job interviews when their applications are rejected by hiring managers. Single parents working multiple minimum wage jobs to support their children who therefore have no free time are not given an equal opportunity to pursue educational or professional-development opportunities that might improve their situation. People who cannot afford to live in the cities where they work and must spend several hours a day commuting to work are likewise not given equal opportunities for academic and professional-development opportunities. Young workers who don't have wealthy parents and are paying 70% of their income on rental costs do not have an equal opportunity to save for a downpayment to buy a home. In a world where women running for political office are held to a higher standard than men (see: incompetent Trump elected over Clinton), women do not have an equal opportunity to pursue political careers. Etc.

 

You have every right to believe that the free market is a better system than government intervention, but you do not get to pretend that it is fair, equal, or just.

 

When I read your missive, I see that these problems exist in every corner of the planet, in capitalist democracies, in theocracies, Oligarchies and Communist/socialist countries. 

 

The BIG difference is that in a capitalist democracy like Canada, USA, UK, Australia/NZ etc the poor and downtrodden have much much more chance of improving their lives, much more chance of eating a better diet than in Venezuela, North Korea or Russia and many more supports than in dictatorial/communist or theocracy style countries.

 

Canada is not perfect, but its more perfect than many other places, we are not the rule, we are the exception to the rule. If you live in Canda you have won the lottery, how many refugees would donate a kidney to be given the simple chance to move to Canada and make a new life? How many of those same refugees want to move to Venezuela or China?

 

As Friedman states "The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn't construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat." 

 

Government has a role to play for sure, but we should not and we must not abdicate our personal responsibility to Government....thats the stuff of nightmares such as East Germany or current day Venezuela, heck even Cuba. How many folks are swimming the straight to get to Cuba? How many journalists did they torture and kill?

 

Democracy isnt perfect, but its still beats the alternatives 

Edited by rjag, 08 November 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[Jason-L]

Communist countries always have an ultra centralized, super wealthy and brutal ruling class. 

 

Governments having too much power has always ended badly. China. Russia. Germany. North Korea. Vietnam. Cuba. Venezuela. 

Unlike capitalism, which has ... hmm, centrailized  , superwealthy and brutal ruling classes?

[LeoVictoria]

Government overwhelmingly does what is good for the politicians who govern for three or four years. The serious stuff, like replacing sewage pipes, water mains and repairing potholes is undertaken in a piecemeal fashion as it's not sexy, vote-generating stuff.

 

Consider that:

- the bridge replacement was not on the radar until the day Fortin got elected

- tent cities were not on the radar until the day Helps got elected

 

Both of those issues dominated each mayor's terms, but before them they weren't even remotely on the general public's radar.

 

What is or isn't on the public's radar is a piss poor way to run a city.   Just take one look at how badly most strata corps run their little buildings and you see what you get when you leave it to consensus and what the majority wants.  You get endless deferred maintenance and short sighted decisions.    

 

HST debacle is another example where the correct decision was clear (HST superior by any measure), but if you ask the public you get an idiotic result.  

Edited by LeoVictoria, 08 November 2017 - 02:55 PM.