275 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

And is the parasitic food cart from your experience still in business today?

Yes.

Are you suggesting some sort of quality cap on food carts?

No, of course not. But you were suggesting that food carts won't impact business because a "hot dog" and a restaurant are not in direct competition. I'm saying gone are the days of simple "hot dog" and smokey carts.

I'm for anything that makes downtown seem just a little bit like, you know, downtown.

Yes, a struggling retail and food service scene and streets full of food carts are the way to go Everyone loves a good bazaar atmosphere.

It's not about head-to-head competition: it's about fair use and compensation of public resources. I mean, if we're going to start making exemptions, then I should pay less property taxes because I create jobs for 20-40 people.

Well that's just it. Lisa Helps, the councillor pushing for these carts, has it wrong. Brick-and-mortar establishments hire staff because they have set opening hours that the owner or owners couldn't possibly fill. If they're lucky and they're busy, these places will even hire staff while the owners are working.

Food carts are operated largely by owners. I challenge anyone to walk up to a food cart downtown and tell me that it employs anyone other than the owner, licensor and/or their family. Even the hot dog guys aren't working an hourly wage, they're operating that cart and paying fees for the brand.

[G-Man]

Yes, a struggling retail and food service scene and streets full of food carts are the way to go Everyone loves a good bazaar atmosphere.

Actually yes this is exactly what I would like to see more of on our streets. The reason that streets in latin america or even New York is in part that commerce is directly in the pedestrian realm. I do like this. This is why I think food carts are great.

So I guess I would like to know what the current license cost is that the city receives for a publicly placed food cart vs what is the cost that B. Fugger, Mike K and VHF think it should be.

How far apart are we here?

[G-Man]

I see that Vancouver cost 350 for a food truck and 150 for a cart. Cannot find the Victoria cost yet but am assuming it would be similar. Also they require a business license on top of that.

[VicHockeyFan]

The city currently has no spots available on City property. I suppose this could change if they expanded the lower Government program.

http://www.victoria....et-vendors.html

Note: The food vending program along Government Street is closed to new applicants. In addition, the Lower Causeway is now under the jurisdiction of the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority. Contact the GVHA at 250.383.8300.

But it is open to vendors setting up on private property. OK, so that makes sense, they already collect tax from that property. That property owner can set a market rate for the space.

[aastra]

Yes, a struggling retail and food service scene and streets full of food carts are the way to go Everyone loves a good bazaar atmosphere.

Here's the thing, why doesn't the city use the food carts to try to liven up areas that don't have any established restaurants? Would anyone have any problem with that? I seem to remember seeing a program about a booming food cart scene somewhere in the US, and the food carts were all clustered together in a district that was mainly parking lots and empty lots.

[G-Man]

^ Yes Portland.

I agree. I always thought a couple in Centennial Square would be good.

[Mike K.]

Actually yes this is exactly what I would like to see more of on our streets. The reason that streets in latin america or even New York is in part that commerce is directly in the pedestrian realm. I do like this. This is why I think food carts are great.

You'd like to see empty storefronts where food businesses once operated in favour of food carts?

$350+$100 for a license doesn't even approach the half-way mark of leasing the little space where Pig once operated. Even that space had insurance costs on top of the lease, energy costs, staff costs and costs to maintain the space. They easily spent $1,500/month just to keep the doors open, then staff costs on top of that.

The issue with Victoria is lease rates are astronomical, partly because of the high cost of acquiring commercial real-estate, partly because taxes and upkeep costs are high. Introducing mass amounts of low-frills competition with few inhibitors other than deciding on the perfect time to open and operate will put a strain on existing food merchants.

Here's the thing, why doesn't the city use the food carts to try to liven up areas that don't have any established restaurants? Would anyone have any problem with that? I seem to remember seeing a program about a booming food cart scene somewhere in the US, and the food carts were all clustered together in a district that was mainly parking lots and empty lots.

You mean make them locate in areas where they would have to build up their business, not skim it from existing food merchants? Now there's a novel idea -- unfortunately it will never happen.

[aastra]

It definitely wasn't Portland. I want to say it was Miami or somewhere in Florida. But anyway, if more than one city is doing it then maybe Victoria should look into doing it, too.

[Mike K.]

I think what Victoria should look into doing is reigning in municipal costs so commercial businesses pay less in taxes, not encouraging low-tax competition to spring up and impact the bottom lines of traditional businesses on which the City so heavily relies.

The point is that until you are involved in a lease and have a commercial space to pay for on a monthly basis, you really don't know what it's like to have thousands of dollars come off your account every month, whether business is good or bad, then deal with the competition that can spring up in any commercial space, let alone the prospect of a random food cart opening up next door and siphoning even more clientele.

[VicHockeyFan]

Why doesn't the Malahat Mountain Inn or whatever it's called do a food cart in their parking lot?

Seriously, I'd set up carts on highways where inevitably, you are going to get kids screaming at their parents to stop on Friday afternoon on their trip up-Island. And the parents will stop, give their kids an ice cream just to shut them up.

[Nparker]

I'm for anything that makes downtown seem just a little bit like, you know, downtown.

Ditto.

[G-Man]

So Mike, While yes it costs less to set-up the cart. If they are on private land would that be okay? As they are then paying the lease for the space they are using. They still have to have a business license and a health inspection.

It sounds like you are saying that food carts should not ever be allowed. The Vancouver food cart permit expressly says that you can not have a cart within a certain location of another place selling a similar product is that okay?

If you are saying that they should not be allowed because they have cheaper business model than I have a problem with that.

How much should a cart reasonably pay on a city street consider they have no seating, no roof for their customers and less capacity to sell in large quantities. Unless they have employees when they run out of food they run out of food.

If it is simply their business model then think of the online companies that don't have bricks and mortar should they be charged a levy in some way because they can run cheaper? Amazon customers should have to pay a tax because no one had to put a product on display and ring something through a cashier?

[G-Man]

What doesn't the Malahat Mountain Inn or whatever it's called do a food cart in their parking lot?

Seriously, I'd set up carts on highways where inevitably, you are going to get kids screaming at their parents to stop on Friday afternoon on their trip up-Island. And the parents will stop, give their kids an ice cream just to shut them up.

Another great from latin america. The highway food vendors are awesome and so convenient.

[Mike K.]

So Mike, While yes it costs less to set-up the cart. If they are on private land would that be okay? As they are then paying the lease for the space they are using. They still have to have a business license and a health inspection.

On private land they are paying market rates. Further to that, a landlord would not allow a competing business to locate on his land if a tenant with similar food offerings, or any food offerings, for that matter (depending on the lease) were located within his building.

On public land these carts are not paying anything other than a trivial amount for a license. If they can plunk themselves adjacent to a brick-and-mortar place, free of charge, that's a problem.

It sounds like you are saying that food carts should not ever be allowed. The Vancouver food cart permit expressly says that you can not have a cart within a certain location of another place selling a similar product is that okay?

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is food carts should be licensed and tax payers should see a net benefit from their presence, not just give them a free ticket to operate on public land and skim clientele from established businesses.

Businesses pay heavy property taxes. These food carts should be a tax benefit to the community, not just a make-work project for City Hall.

How much should a cart reasonably pay on a city street consider they have no seating, no roof for their customers and less capacity to sell in large quantities. Unless they have employees when they run out of food they run out of food.

Capacity is relevant. A busy food cart can sell to as many customers as a brick-and-mortar.

Regardless of a roof or whatnot, a food cart should pay a monthly or daily lease rate to the city. The little hole in the wall Pig took up was leased at $40-$60 / sq. ft. if not more. The smaller the space, the higher the square footage rate. IMO food carts should pay a daily rate of not less than $100 for the public space they take up on which to operate. That sounds like a lot but it pales to the types of costs an average downtown eatery pays to stay in business.

If it is simply their business model then think of the online companies that don't have bricks and mortar should they be charged a levy in some way because they can run cheaper? Amazon customers should have to pay a tax because no one had to put a product on display and ring something through a cashier?

Amazon customers pay for shipping and there is a delay between purchasing a product and receiving it. This difference brings some equity to the market.

Besides, unless an online business is operating a digital kiosk adjacent to their brick-and-mortar competition the comparison isn't really relevant, I don't think.

[VicHockeyFan]

How much should a cart reasonably pay on a city street consider they have no seating, no roof for their customers and less capacity to sell in large quantities. Unless they have employees when they run out of food they run out of food.

We want them to pay for the SPACE they and their customers occupy, like any other business that's on private land. I don't want silly regulations like saying they have to be 100 yards apart, or can't sell similar items to the next guy.

Like I don't think I could set up a bank and have the tellers behind a counter that ends at the property line, then have all my customers lining up on the sidewalk as they wait for a teller. I need to provide some space for them.

I don't particularly like instant zoning for food operations. When I decide to lease space and build a restaurant, I like the idea that I know what the landscape looks like, too. I know, a restaurant can move in next door, but 30 can't spring up in one summer.

[Bingo]

Frank Stanford comments

"This must be the worst possible time to be trying to sell the idea of mobile food carts on the streets of downtown Victoria".

more; http://www.cfax1070....ials&Itemid=115

[G-Man]

While I think 100 dollars a day is a bit steep for a business that may have a total of 50 - 60 sales in a day I agree that there should be some sort of increase in cost so that they could actually go about doing it. I find our cities heavily over regulated and I don't see a lot of food carts. To be honest it seemed like there were more food carts (they were all Mr. Tubesteak) back in the 1990's than there are now.

At 100 a day I doubt there would be a single cart in the city so that is in effect banning them from operating. A more fair way could be a percentage of revenue over a month with a minimum set. Also keep in mind that they also have to get a business license on top of the cart license and the carts themselves are not free (some cost thousands) and they have food costs just as anyone else and a clientele that expects the costs to be lower than a bricks and mortar business.

[Sparky]

[Bingo]

[Mike K.]

At 100 a day I doubt there would be a single cart in the city so that is in effect banning them from operating. A more fair way could be a percentage of revenue over a month with a minimum set. Also keep in mind that they also have to get a business license on top of the cart license and the carts themselves are not free (some cost thousands) and they have food costs just as anyone else and a clientele that expects the costs to be lower than a bricks and mortar business.

I disagree. $100/day is a very fair price for the right to operate a business on public space.

Also keep in mind that they also have to get a business license on top of the cart license and the carts themselves are not free (some cost thousands).

A business license is a drop in the bucket. Every business needs one. Unless you're councillor Alto, that is.

Every business requires investment. Just because there is a cost to operating a food cart doesn't mean society needs to kneel over and lend a helping hand. Nobody cares when an average food service storefront incurs thousands in opening costs, if not tens of thousands if there is any remodeling or renovations to be done.