275 replies to this topic

[mysage]

I disagree. $100/day is a very fair price for the right to operate a business on public space.



A business license is a drop in the bucket. Every business needs one. Unless you're councillor Alto, that is.

Every business requires investment. Just because there is a cost to operating a food cart doesn't mean society needs to kneel over and lend a helping hand. Nobody cares when an average food service storefront incurs thousands in opening costs, if not tens of thousands if there is any remodeling or renovations to be done.

Given that New York, and closer to home Portland Oregon, both have thriving food/cart/truck communities does anyone have any idea how they are licensed and what the accompanying costs may be?

[Greg]

Besides, unless an online business is operating a digital kiosk adjacent to their brick-and-mortar competition the comparison isn't really relevant, I don't think.

I'm pretty sure local retailers are losing more of my business to online retailers than local restaurants are losing due to my frequenting the taco truck.

[G-Man]

Well in Oregon most of the carts are on private property (Parking stalls) so they would again have to have some agreement with the land owner.

That said I highly doubt that they are charging between 2200 and 3000 a month for someone to park on the parking spot. If the private sector is charging this much and companies are willing to pay it that is one thing but the public sector charging a higher rate for a similar thing seems like a ban to me. Interesting to find out how much the Perogi Truck pays the landowner.

To be honest charging an amount that cannot be recooperated easily is similar to how restauarants in Cuba work. If you want to open a private restaurant you have to pay the government 800 dollars at the first of the month assuming that you will be able to make money over the next month so that you can cover your cost and have another 800 dollars the next month. Some can make it work and you can't say that the Cuban government is not allowing free enterprise they are just making it so hard as to be nearly impossible.

[Greg]

food carts just skim easy clientele in summer and generally don't create employment.

They create new entrepreneurs though, and the city can definitely use more people with an entrepreneurial attitude.

[Greg]

Yes, a struggling retail and food service scene and streets full of food carts are the way to go Everyone loves a good bazaar atmosphere.

It's not a zero sum game. Want more business for downtown restaurants, start with more people downtown. Want more people downtown, breathe some life into the place.

[VicHockeyFan]

Well in Oregon most of the carts are on private property (Parking stalls) so they would again have to have some agreement with the land owner.

That said I highly doubt that they are charging between 2200 and 3000 a month for someone to park on the parking spot. If the private sector is charging this much and companies are willing to pay it that is one thing but the public sector charging a higher rate for a similar thing seems like a ban to me. Interesting to find out how much the Perogi Truck pays the landowner.

The city has few restrictions on carts in private parking lots. Victoria has hundreds of suitable spots. The fact that cart-owners aren't working up all kinds of deals with private land-owners tells me that they just want an extremely cheap ride on public spots like lower Government or the upper Causeway.

[Greg]

Some quick online research suggests that to operate a mobile food vending unit in NYC you need a Mobile Food License ($50/two years) and a Mobile Food Vending Unit Permit for each vehicle ($200/two years). The number issued is limited by law.

Makes $100/day seem a bit steep to me.

[Mike K.]

That said I highly doubt that they are charging between 2200 and 3000 a month for someone to park on the parking spot.

I guess I should add that the $100/day fee would apply to only the days the cart is operating.

Some quick online research suggests that to operate a mobile food vending unit in NYC you need a Mobile Food License ($50/two years) and a Mobile Food Vending Unit Permit for each vehicle ($200/two years). The number issued is limited by law.

Makes $100/day seem a bit steep to me.

Ah, but to buy a food cart license from a current owner costs you a pretty penny.

The city has few restrictions on carts in private parking lots. Victoria has hundreds of suitable spots. The fact that cart-owners aren't working up all kinds of deals with private land-owners tells me that they just want an extremely cheap ride on public spots like lower Government or the upper Causeway.

That just about sums it up.

[VicHockeyFan]

Some quick online research suggests that to operate a mobile food vending unit in NYC you need a Mobile Food License ($50/two years) and a Mobile Food Vending Unit Permit for each vehicle ($200/two years). The number issued is limited by law.

Makes $100/day seem a bit steep to me.

Probably a poor example. This is a city that is famous for its rent controls, the ultimate government meddling in the free market to create sweetheart deals for the few chosen lucky ones. The unlucky ones subsidize the rent deals for the few.

http://online.wsj.co...3780657688.html

Monawara Sultana says her rent is going up: $14,000 for a two-year permit to run a food cart where she sells $1 hot dogs outside of Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx.

New York City's competitive street-food culture has created a thriving black market for permits, which are in short supply across the five boroughs. WSJ's Hilke Schellmann reports.

And it's not the city levying the increase or recouping the money. It's the permit holder, who is asking for double what she previously paid, according to Ms. Sultana. "It's not fair," said the Bangladeshi immigrant and mother of three. "Why did it go up so much?"

The city's competitive street food culture has created a thriving black market for mobile food vending permits issued by the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. The city charges a mere $200 for most food-cart permits, which must be paid every two years when they are renewed. But it only issues 3,100 year-round permits plus an additional 1,000 seasonal permits—not enough to satisfy demand. Transferring or renting these permits to another vendor is illegal but everyone, including the city's Health Department, acknowledges, that it happens.

[Sparky]

We need some of these kind of carts.

[Bob Fugger]

They create new entrepreneurs though, and the city can definitely use more people with an entrepreneurial attitude.

I completely agree. And they ought to stand on their own two feet and contribute to the municipal tax base like the rest of us.

[LJ]

In NYC the carts do add to the street experience but it is not always good.

Get stuck at a crosswalk for a couple of minutes with greasy smoke billowing all around is not something to be desired.

[sdwright.vic]

So how does all this work (regarding a brick and morter restaurant) on a nice summers day where I called ahead, placed my order to go and sat outside? The city is supplying that space for me to eat as well. Plaza's are for that, correct?

[Bob Fugger]

So how does all this work (regarding a brick and morter restaurant) on a nice summers day where I called ahead, placed my order to go and sat outside? The city is supplying that space for me to eat as well. Plaza's are for that, correct?

An excellent and illustrative example! The restaurant from which you purchased your meal also helped pay through municipal property taxes (which, as a reminder, are set at 3.5x the residential rate) the plaza in which you sit to eat your meal.

The food cart, on the other hand, cooks your meal and you eat it in the same plaza - except that they contribute nothing to the creation of that plaza. They are freeloading off of the taxes paid by bricks and mortar restaurants - and residents, too, for that matter.

That is my point exemplified.

[VicHockeyFan]

Ah, very good. ^

So how does all this work (regarding a brick and morter restaurant) on a nice summers day where I called ahead, placed my order to go and sat outside? The city is supplying that space for me to eat as well. Plaza's are for that, correct?

I think most zoning will also require you to have a seating area in your restaurant, and washrooms etc. So for the privilege of being able to serve you your take-out meal, they built those amenities.

[G-Man]

I guess my main issue is that it seems that each of you is against the private business rather than the city which is setting up the situation which you describe. If there is an opportunity to be made and there is a benefit to the business owner should they not take it? I am sure all of you have such strong opinions about the government subsidies on the oil sand developers.

[VicHockeyFan]

I guess my main issue is that it seems that each of you is against the private business rather than the city which is setting up the situation which you describe. If there is an opportunity to be made and there is a benefit to the business owner should they not take it? I am sure all of you have such strong opinions about the government subsidies on the oil sand developers.

I don't think anyone thinks health rules should be relaxed for carts. Lisa Helps essentially said her entrepreneur example required that.

So, putting that aside, we acknowledge that with all existing rules, anybody can set up a food cart today, on private property. There does not appear to be a flood of these. So we can only assume that the pent up demand that Helps knows of, is cart operators looking to set up on public land for better locations and better rates than they can find on private land.

That situation would undercut existing businesses. But hey, if the city wants to show us rules and rates that don't look like sweetheart deals, than let's see them.

[Mike K.]

If food cart vendors truly believe in supplying their food to under-supplied markets, there are plenty of areas in the CRD with little to no food service whatsoever. Think Vanalman industrial park. Other than the red barn, there's nothing among hundreds of warehouse workers. So where are the free enterprising food cart vendors? There are many examples like that where food carts have yet to operate -- but could.

I have a feeling that these entrepreneurial individuals aren't so much about being entrepreneurs and supplying a real under-supplied market, they're more about finding opportunities to tap into high traffic areas, for pennies on the dollar, where established businesses have invested lots of money.

[VicHockeyFan]

I have now written to the Mayor and Council on this topic, and even invited them to view the last pages of this thread.

They have recently indicated they are concerned about high business tax rates vs. residential rates, and if they move forward with cheap deals for cart operators, I think that flies in the face of what they have been saying about business tax rates.

[VicHockeyFan]

Peurto Vallarta Amigos opened a floating food cart, BTW, on the weekend at Fisherman's Wharf.