79 replies to this topic

[mat]

Elections BC is starting the final tally of postal ballots - prediction is now fewer than 48% actually bothered to vote. One commentator went as far as saying it could go as low as 46%. That's not only pathetic, it's frightening - and says a huge amount about the state of our society. That is the lowest turnout in BC election history - and might be the lowest ever in any province in Canada.

With the Liberals getting 47% of the total vote - it means they have a mandate to govern (as a majority?!!) from less than 23% of the population.

If the above numbers do not convince people we are in desperate need for comprehensive electoral reform - what will?

There should be a binding rule in all elections - if fewer than 51% of eligible voters fail to participate, a new election must be called within 30 days.

[Nparker]

Maybe there need to be penalties (besides just the obvious election of bad government) for those who choose not to vote, for reasons other than being away from the province during the voting period and of course illness that prevents attendance at the polling stations. I know this sounds very heavy handed and undemocratic, but what's the future of our democracy if fewer and fewer people choose to take part in it?

Are there any reasonable suggestions on how the electorate could be penalized for NOT voting? After all, everyone pays the price for those who choose not to vote.

[Baro]

I don't know, make it legal to punch anyone in the face who complains about government but didn't vote, specially if they're under 30 (in which case you can kick them too)?

[G-Man]

I believe Australia has a legal requirement for voting not sure what the penalty is...

[G-Man]

Here we go:

http://www.aec.gov.a...ting compulsory

Is voting compulsory?
Yes, voting is compulsory for every Australian citizen aged 18 years or older. If you do not vote and do not have a valid and sufficient reason for failing to vote, a penalty is imposed. For further information see Compulsory Voting.

What happens if I do not vote?
Initially the Australian Electoral Commission will write to all apparent non-voters requesting that they either provide a reason for their failure to vote or pay a $20 penalty.

If, within 21 days, the apparent non-voter fails to reply, cannot provide a valid and sufficient reason or declines to pay the penalty, then prosecution proceedings may be instigated. If the matter is dealt with in court and the person is found guilty, he or she may be fined up to $50 plus court costs.

[Bernard]

There are about 30 countries that have compulsory voting, about 18 of them enforce it. The enforcement costs a lot and is not really cost effective.

I think we should give everyone who votes a 5% reduction in their taxes, or pay anyone that votes $50 a month till the next election.

[mat]

Maybe there need to be penalties (besides just the obvious election of bad government) for those who choose not to vote, for reasons other than being away from the province during the voting period and of course illness that prevents attendance at the polling stations. I know this sounds very heavy handed and undemocratic, but what's the future of our democracy if fewer and fewer people choose to take part in it?

Are there any reasonable suggestions on how the electorate could be penalized for NOT voting? After all, everyone pays the price for those who choose not to vote.

It does not sound heavy handed or un-democratic at all - my own feeling, becoming more strident as I age, is that members of a democratic society have the responsibility, not just the right, to vote. In answer to questions below, there are many countries which enforce voting. Belgium, Australia, Denmark...in Belgium the fine is Euro 500, and if you fail to pay, up to 3 months in jail (although I don't know how much that is enforced). Australia goes as far as registering Ex-pats, like the 250 000 living in London UK - and if they fail to vote in either national or state elections they are fined directly upon return home. (think it is up to $50 per offense)

We had a similar discussion on encouraging voting during and after the recent municipal elections. One idea was to offer a tax rebate to voters, or tiering municipal fees - such as water, garbage collection, home owner grants.

Provincially it would be harder to accomplish through 'monetized' benefits rather than some form of punishment - however I am so disgusted and angry about this why not take away health care!

[davek]

Compulsory voting, like most forms of coercion, is evil AND stupid.

It violates the natural right of free speech. If it is weakly enforced, it furthers contempt for the law. It encourages voting by people who haven't the interest to acquire the knowledge to vote soundly. It criminalizes the behaviour of family, friends, and neighbours who would otherwise be content to let others select a leader on their behalf. It suggests greater support for a government than it may actually have. It deprives the populace of the ability to demonstrate that it is dissatisfied with all of the major candidates. And on and on and on...

Please... put it out of your mind and don't talk about it anymore.

[mat]

Compulsory voting, like most forms of coercion, is evil AND stupid.

It violates the natural right of free speech. If it is weakly enforced, it furthers contempt for the law. It encourages voting by people who haven't the interest to acquire the knowledge to vote soundly. It criminalizes the behaviour of family, friends, and neighbours who would otherwise be content to let others select a leader on their behalf. It suggests greater support for a government than it may actually have. It deprives the populace of the ability to demonstrate that it is dissatisfied with all of the major candidates. And on and on and on...

Please... put it out of your mind and don't talk about it anymore.

Nope - sorry Davek, won't happen. You can choose not to read the posts, ignore them as you please, or rant against. Up to you

I know the feeling. When I moved to Belgium in the early '90's there was a procedure to register in the town, get set up for taxes, health care etc. I remember clearly being told by the city registrar 'you are now a citizen of Brugge, you must vote'. Wow - did I ever rant and rail against that. "How can you force me to vote!" - "the fact I don't want to vote is a vote in itself!" etc.

Belgium may not be the best example of either a voting system, or the results - (extremely divided) - but when arriving back in Canada it was amazing the difference in voter apathy and political information ignorance.

The argument that 'uneducated' voters will simply place an X without any consideration is not proven - the opposite occurs. There are plenty of studies which clearly show enforced election systems get far more considered choice than 'volunteer'. The general theme being that if you know you must make a decision on a certain date - you will take some time to research and determine a choice.

hmmm - "family, friends and neighbours who would let others determine a vote?". Why can't they go out themselves and put an X?

"It deprives the populace of the ability to demonstrate that it is dissatisfied with all of the major candidates." and then we go into STV. A different voting system was offered, and rejected. There is a very simple way of 'forcing voting' and providing an opt out - on the ballot put 'none of the above'

There is gaming theory, corporate theory and more than numerous styles of governance. Does not matter what social order you aspire to - they all involve social interaction.

[eseedhouse]

One way to possibly ensure more voters, if not a higher proportion of eligible ones, would be to extend the franchise to all our citizens. You may say "but we already have", but that is not so, as a little thought will show.

[mat]

One way to possibly ensure more voters, if not a higher proportion of eligible ones, would be to extend the franchise to all our citizens. You may say "but we already have", but that is not so, as a little thought will show.

Love to know how you define a citizen - and as all Canadian citizens have a voting 'franchise' by law, how we can extend it further?

[Bernard]

One way to possibly ensure more voters, if not a higher proportion of eligible ones, would be to extend the franchise to all our citizens. You may say "but we already have", but that is not so, as a little thought will show.

My middle son is working on this issue, we still have an arbitrary age barrier to voting. We do not allow people under the age of 18 to vote

[VicDuck]

I'd wish they put a none of the above option on the ballad to show the politicians that they suck and need to do a better job. It probably could win a few riding's as well.

[Bernard]

I'd wish they put a none of the above option on the ballad to show the politicians that they suck and need to do a better job. It probably could win a few riding's as well.

You can do this by spoiling your ballot, it will be counted. Most times the number of people that do this is very low and noticed about as much as Saul Andersen's run for MLA in Victoria Beacon Hill, but there are times when this is not the case and the numbers are high enough to matter.

If you really do not like any of the choices, start a campaign to get people to vote but to spoil their ballot. If 10% or more people do this, the media and politician will notice.

[davek]

Nope - sorry Davek, won't happen. You can choose not to read the posts, ignore them as you please, or rant against. Up to you

I think I'll just keep on with the whole 'rational discussion' sort of thing.

hmmm - "family, friends and neighbours who would let others determine a vote?". Why can't they go out themselves and put an X?

It doesn't matter why. They are free born human beings with a right to live their lives as they see fit, so long as they don't encroach on your equal rights to do the same. No one has any business putting a gun to someone else's heads just because that someone else isn't persuaded that voting is that important.

"It deprives the populace of the ability to demonstrate that it is dissatisfied with all of the major candidates." and then we go into STV. A different voting system was offered, and rejected. There is a very simple way of 'forcing voting' and providing an opt out - on the ballot put 'none of the above'

There is no point in forcing people to vote. It has no benefits. No country with compulsory voting, STV or otherwise, is run any better than Canada. The reasons for this are explained by http://www.econlib.o...licChoice.html'>Public Choice Theory. In short, it explains that all elected officials are faced with the same incentives, and therefore behave in much the same way.

And why do you put 'forcing voting' in quotes? Do you mean to suggest that's not what it is?

There is gaming theory, corporate theory and more than numerous styles of governance. Does not matter what social order you aspire to - they all involve social interaction.

But they do not all involve coerced social interaction. So, seriously... let's reserve the property seizures and cages for thieves, murderers, and rapists, and rely on persuasion for getting out the vote.

[Newlywednotnearlydead]

Compulsory voting, like most forms of coercion, is evil AND stupid.

It violates the natural right of free speech. If it is weakly enforced, it furthers contempt for the law. It encourages voting by people who haven't the interest to acquire the knowledge to vote soundly. It criminalizes the behaviour of family, friends, and neighbours who would otherwise be content to let others select a leader on their behalf. It suggests greater support for a government than it may actually have. It deprives the populace of the ability to demonstrate that it is dissatisfied with all of the major candidates. And on and on and on...

I totally agree, I have a right to speech, but whether I choose to exercise it or not is up to me. By not voting, you be exercising a philosophical disagreement with the entire political system or dislike for all of the available parties, why should someone have to go all the way to a polling place to spoil their ballot. I find the whole idea crazy, forcing people to vote seems almost as odious as forcing someone to serve in the army or go to a particular church.

You can also force someone to vote, but you can't force someone to be informed. Is the process really going to benefit from increased participation from uninformed voters.

[G-Man]

How can anyone be uninformed in this era. Really it is a choice and if it is a problem with the system then why not go out an vote for the STV. Really there is no excuse not to vote.

Non-voters should just have to be taxed higher and since they aren't paying attention they won't notice when the government passes the legislation.

[Newlywednotnearlydead]

How about because they choose not to? Plenty of people just aren't interested in politics. Just because you think it's important doesn't mean someone should be forced to do it.

[mat]

How about because they choose not to? Plenty of people just aren't interested in politics. Just because you think it's important doesn't mean someone should be forced to do it.

The argument can be made - my opinion, it should be rigorously debated - that 'participatory' democracy requires some form of incentive or enforcement. The stability of the electoral system, and our form of governance, is ultimately at stake if voting turnout continues to decline.

It would be an interesting Supreme Court challenge if voter participation went down to say 30%, and one argued the non-votes could be considered the same as 'none of the above' - would a Canadian court accept any governments' mandate to rule on that basis?

What I do not accept is the notion no-one should be forced to vote on the basis of individual political ignorance - or that it would be an unjustified intrusion on our rights. We accept many rules in our daily lives - some are legally bound, others socially defined or through employment.

Interesting to note that countries which require voting tend to provide the most extensive social services.

[G-Man]

^ Exactly voting should be up there with stopping at stop signs, it hlps society function.