3103 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

Oh it’s pretty silly to keep this up. It’s done for. Rail is bust and the way things are going we’ll need to expand the TCH for more cars.

[RFS]

Oh it’s pretty silly to keep this up. It’s done for. Rail is bust and the way things are going we’ll need to expand the TCH for more cars.

Sad but true. Glad I got to ride it while it ran.

[Mike K.]

Yeah, I was just thinking about that today, how neat it was to ride it from Langford to Vic West back when they had that rail fan thing five years ago. I never did ride it to Courtenay but I regret not doing so.

I’m a big rail fan, btw. I travel around just to check out old rail lines and museums. But I also know (looking back) when it’s time to turn the page and for the E&N that was 20 years ago given the track condition and the usage it had.

[LJ]

I think the main reason they keep talking about it is if they admit a train will never run on the line again a whole lot of the land they have reverts to the natives.

[Mike K.]

Correct. A portion is already before the courts.

[On the Level]

I know no one agrees with me on this site, but I still believe this is a win.  Why;

 

• I was on the first run of the Westcoast Express...after the same complaints...was a success then used it for years.
• Buses....lanes....infrastructure are not free......cost are just invisible.....except rail. Why?  
• This is our last mass transit route into town that isn't dependent on those physically able to bike.
• Financials...Canada maintains a Canadian distance of rail.......replacing ties, rail and ballast is totally automated and cheap considering how long it lasts.  

And if we compare realities....a BC Transit bus would last 70 years as the Budds did and still operate and still look relevant.  Why?

[Victoria Watcher]

I know no one agrees with me on this site, but I still believe this is a win.  Why;

 

• I was on the first run of the Westcoast Express...after the same complaints...was a success then used it for years.
• Buses....lanes....infrastructure are not free......cost are just invisible.....except rail. Why?  
• This is our last mass transit route into town that isn't dependent on those physically able to bike.
• Financials...Canada maintains a Canadian distance of rail.......replacing ties, rail and ballast is totally automated and cheap considering how long it lasts.  

And if we compare realities....a BC Transit bus would last 70 years as the Budds did and still operate and still look relevant.  Why?

 

once it goes beyond langford no matter how you configure it it can never be more than half the speed of a car or bus.   even from langford it'll be 25-50% slower than a car.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 29 April 2020 - 02:49 AM.

[splashflash]

The only freight which leaves the Wellcox yard is thrice-weekly freight? Three to six car trains travel less than 10 miles for that delivery. Freight is not working either.

[Victoria Watcher]

The only freight which leaves the Wellcox yard is thrice-weekly freight? Three to six car trains travel less than 10 miles for that delivery. Freight is not working either.

 

what is the freight?  propane?  feed?  

[splashflash]

Propane.

From section 3.1 of the report

Cargo shipped between Wellcox Yard and Annacis Island largely includes, animal feed, forest products, aggregates,
fertilizer and propane. All goods shipped (except propane) are transloaded to/from truck in Wellcox Yard.
Approximately 250-300 cars of propane are shipped to/from the Island each year.

Approximately seven cars shipped each week, during winter months and up to eight to ten cars during the winter. Propane is the only cargo transported by rail beyond Nanaimo.

---

Actually, the propane cars offload propane in Wellington, in Nanaimo, just north of Northfield Road.

All the rest of the railway could be abandoned, just like the former Lake Cowichan branch/subdivision of the E&N. Or the Galloping Goose between Victoria and Leechtown. They are now both bike paths. They were not claimed lock-stock-and-barrel by First Nations.

[Victoria Watcher]

so propane comes by rail ferry because those rail barges are able to carry dangerous cargo (propane) in any trip whereas bc ferries can only carry propane trucks or trailers on designated dangerous cargo sailings where most other passengers are not allowed.

also a train propane tank is larger than a truck tanker.

so there is still an economic reason for that movement. but for most other safer cargo there is not as pressing an economic reason to have it come over in s railcard rather than truck.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 29 April 2020 - 06:28 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

All the rest of the railway could be abandoned, just like the former Lake Cowichan branch/subdivision of the E&N. Or the Galloping Goose between Victoria and Leechtown. They are now both bike paths. They were not claimed lock-stock-and-barrel by First Nations.



I think though it has been agreed or decreed by courts that the e&n WILL revert to First Nations though.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 29 April 2020 - 06:27 AM.

[Mike K.]

I think it’s more so the portions that run through reserves rather than the entire track, and times have certainly changed since the earlier lines were decommissioned. This island was once dotted by rail lines and extensions.

In Victoria you have the Songhees Nation stretch that will go back to the nation if the line is decommissioned.

[UserofVic]

So I actually read the report. A ~10th of the ~$600 million for a commuter service is the maintenance facility. 7 Phased Improvements is the cost for upgrading the track, it's actually pretty cheap, even with the full engineering budget thrown in it's not that different compared to what the Douglas street bus lanes have cost. I'm assuming that there's no property acquisition for the track itself, that appears to come from station construction, maintenance, and layover space.

Then we get to the costs for restoring the track for the entire island, including the line to Port Alberni:

 

This makes the costs start to look a lot more reasonable tbh. Trains have a higher capacity than buses and generally last longer. I can't find the actual cost of a double decker bus but they're not exactly cheap ($800,000-$1million/bus range from what I recall) and max out at about 100 people, 60ft articulated (bendy) buses max out at about 120 both in crush loads, which often aren't reached on BC Transit buses because people are bad at moving to the back or upstairs and drivers think it's full agh. In contrast the old Bud cars seated 70-90 people/carriage (Something variants), without any standees. Bilevel coaches (West Coast Express) seat 162/car. I think they assume a train length of 100m which could be 3 bi-levels and a locomotive, making a capacity of about 486 seats and a few hundred standees and for ~$5,490,000‬/train. The most seats any of our double deckers have is 84 in the original ones, but a redesigned staircase with proper landings cuts 2 in the newer Enviro 500s. Therefore to get the same number of seats in double decker buses as a 3 coach bilevel train we need about 6 double deckers. That's comparable in price (Note I make some major assumptions here) and the train rolling stock should last far longer as BC Transit stretches out the lifespan of buses with the 22-25 year old D40LFs seeming ancient and prone to error. The similarly aged WCE rolling stock will continue running far longer. Having said that, buses are more flexible and continued transit priority improvements to highway1/Douglas increase transit speeds and reliability allowing a far greater frequency. But again on the other hand there's only so many buses that can be crammed onto highway 1 and especially Douglas before it becomes saturated, an alternative route is useful.

 

Some important assumptions they used in their basic service plan:

• Commuter traffic is only destined for downtown, meaning Naden commuters are excluded from projections
• Commuter peak traffic only, no midday or weekend service. Unclear on if the scenario would include weekend upisland trips
• 4 trains a day, 1 to/from Courtney (note extra rolling stock is needed for maintenance spares and reliability and whatnot. Standard practice)
• No double tracking happens, which if track upgrades indicate may be relatively cheap. Double tracking allows for 2 way service

Also on the note of time, with an upgraded track the report says a trains can do the entire trip to Courtney in only 3 hours and 8 minutes. Google Maps says that's 2.5 hours driving without traffic, which actually becomes somewhat competitive. A bit slower yes, but then there's no stress driving, and never congestion which driving will always be prone too outside of toll roads. They want the commuter train to get downtown at 8:28am and go back upisland at 5pm. It'd be easy to add a round trip in-between at say 9am (pending commuter trains and storage requirements) with another train leaving Courtney around noon or 1pm. This would also spare the train operator from a hellish split shift. At the same time it'd be possible to run one of the commuter trains back and forth all day, even without double tracking. Midday service gets kinda odd though since it starts to directly compete with the 50's planned extension to Westhills, and the 46's planned midday service but c'est la vie more transit service can't hurt, and the 50 is hitting constant capacity issues.

 

Another note: Car lanes generally can only carry at best about 1600 people/hour. The worst of any mode.The exact numbers vary by source, but the trend is that cars are extremely inefficient at moving people, and transit is the best. Bikes are always able to carry 3-6 times as many people, and walking tends to be a bit higher than bikes, below transit. The conservative ridership projects for commuter service are about 1000 for the morning trips, 1500 for the evening (Idk bus/bike, train out in I guess?), making it about equal to adding a new lane to highway 1 and Douglas, at a mere 4 trains a day, ignoring Naden! Any costs associated with rail must be compared to the costs of other equivalent transit or road improvements, and the cost of just doing nothing. Always an option, but it can cost more in the long run (Which is why BC Transit recommend LRT in 2011 btw, it would've been cheapest overall by 2038). If double tracking is relatively cheap it's feasible to add a lot more service to the corridor too.

 

 

[splashflash]

From page 14 (21) of the report, see the attached file showing first Nations locations along the rail line. I agree that the rail line adjacent to the reservations would be absorbed. The Snaw-naw-as currently have a case against the ICF and around 2015 the Cowichan area first nations filed cases as well, but were convinced by the ICF to drop them. The Songees are biding their time - preventing the E&N bike path from following the rail line, instead making it divert in a dog-leg, following Hallowell Road.

Attached Images

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[Mike K.]

Holy smokes, he/she joins and bears gifts with the first post! Welcome to VV, UserofVic.

 

Here's something to consider, though. Wouldn't it make more sense to buy 255 $1 million Double Deckers that have the capacity to haul 20,000 commuters, rather than spend up to $600 million for a capacity of 1,000 people over seven rail cars?

[Victoria Watcher]

with the bus lanes and the mckenzie interchange the bus will do the trip faster (and much more frequently - reducing dwell times and passenger waits at stations) than trains can.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 29 April 2020 - 07:53 AM.

[Mike K.]

Further to that, the GVCC helped kill rail by heavily supporting a bridge replacement that did not include rail into downtown-proper. They famously (infamously?) distributed flyers to residents that showed a new bridge with a train track right before the referendum was held, and when it was pointed out that their image was incorrect by then it was too late.

 

So now you've got those 1,000 passengers arriving in Vic West and either having to walk a kilometre just to cross the bridge, or get shuttled by buses into downtown (about 12 double deckers worth of passengers).

 

What killed rail, IMO, is the new bridge. Had we still had rail into downtown it could have been extended into a purpose-built terminus at City Hall where several vehicles could stage in Centennial Square or below Centennial Square.

[Nparker]

 

the GVCC helped kill rail by heavily supporting a bridge replacement that did not include rail into downtown-proper

This can not be stated enough. Once there was no rail crossing into downtown, the future of passenger train transportation was effectively dead.

[Mike K.]

Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition, for those who may not know.