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#81 Mike K.

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 06:57 AM

Yeah, pretty much. This is more about PR than fighting fires.


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#82 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 07:24 AM

 
Frank Stanford comment Thur July 9, '15
 
I don't think it's fair to blame the provincial government exclusively for the fact a waterbomber has remained parked within sight of a forest fire at Sproat Lake. 
 
Sure it's poor optics.  A Martian looking at the situation might label it absurd.
 
But he might not know his namesake waterbomber used to be part of the BC firefighting arsenal, and was retired, for thoughtful, rational reasons.   
 
I know it was a contentious decision at the time, and you are free to agree or disagree with it, but please have an informed opinion.   Understand that the people responsible for forest protection concluded the Mars aircraft is not nimble enough for their needs.  There's a difference between that and  "bungling" a silver plated opportunity. 
 
Yes, you could argue that the time it takes to relocate from one part of the province to another and inability to land on bodies of water less than a prescribed size are not relevant when the aircraft is right there, in front of your nose, as you are gasping and sneezing from the smoke.  But I cannot believe it is as easy as snapping one's fingers to cause a crew to appear and an aircraft to be readied for service.  Government claims in a statement it requires three days' notice; that was one of the issues it had with the Martin Mars. 
 
All I know is that any contract for provision of a service requires two parties.  I doubt that either one of them is entirely heroic and the other entirely buffoon.  

 

 

 

That all sounds right.  I presume the Mars also wanted a minimum contract, Wayne Coulson is no dummy when it comes to business.

 

“In 2013, when the Wildfire Management Branch last used the Martin Mars, the season rate was $672,300 with a flying time cost of $4,000 per hour for the first 45 hours and $18,800 per hour for any additional hours. This rate does not include fuel,” they said in a statement last year.

 

 

Keeping the Mars on standby used to cost the province about $670,000 per season, on top of a $4,000 per hour rate while it was in use, according to the Ministry of Forests. It was also only deployed to 20 wildfires between 2007 and 2013.

The four replacement Fire Boss skimmers, which carry about 3,000 litres of water each, are contracted for $2.5 million per season plus a combined hourly use rate of $2,000.

Comparing the performance of the Mars in Kelowna in 2003 and the Fire Bosses in West Kelowna in 2014, the government found the bomber dropped 690,000 litres of water over 28 hours at a cost of 63 cents per litre, while the skimmers delivered 586,000 litres over 11 hours at a cost of 23 cents per litre.

For context, the province has already spent more than $80 million fighting wildfires this year, and spent about $122 million total the last year the Mars was in service.

 


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#83 jonny

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 07:27 AM

Yeah, pretty much. This is more about PR than fighting fires.

 

And that Coulson President we have been hearing so much from should be awarded some sort of medal or lifetime achievement award for his lobbying efforts.



#84 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:33 AM

Keeping the Mars on standby used to cost the province about $670,000 per season, on top of a $4,000 per hour rate while it was in use, according to the Ministry of Forests.

 

 

This year's negotiated rate:  $450,000 for one month, $6,000 per hour, and province pays fuel costs.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#85 Mike K.

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:45 AM

So what's in the best interest of taxpayers? Sounds like this is a massove amount of money and we'll likely be paying about $70-80,000 per day of use of this thing.

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#86 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:51 AM

So what's in the best interest of taxpayers? Sounds like this is a massove amount of money and we'll likely be paying about $70-80,000 per day of use of this thing.

 

Not that high.  It can at best be used for 4 hours per day ($39,000).  That's why the former hourly rates went from $4,000 to $18,000 after 45 hours of use.  All the maintenance required.

 

It will be interesting to see if this thing just flattens the Sproat Lake fire in one or two days.  That's what some are predicting.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#87 Mike K.

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:54 AM

Why so few hours per day?


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#88 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:56 AM

Why so few hours per day?

  

s_mhx_03.jpg


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#89 Mike K.

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 07:17 AM

I see that's a 1956 Intel CPU.

 

Ok I get it, with that technology it's hard making sure all of the plane's apps are up to date.


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#90 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 07:23 AM

That could be a rocket engine above for all I know.

 

The Mars has 4 old engines, they can only run so long without some care.  Oh, here it is:

 

Andreas_Barowski.jpg

 

Looks like a 10 or 12 cylinder radial.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#91 jonny

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 07:31 AM

The Sea Kings are modern compared to the Mars, which are like WWII technology.

 

World War Two!!!!

 

The Mars were retired from the US military about the time the Sea Kings came into service.


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#92 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 07:36 AM

The Mars requires 4 staff aboard during operations, that can't be too cheap.

 

I think the Fire Boss just has one guy onboard:

 

5360080853_228f42023a_b.jpg


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#93 Mike K.

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 07:53 AM

Bernard V posted on Twitter that this year around 260,000 hectares of forest has burned in BC. Last year, in total, there were less than 60,000 hectares burned.


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#94 North Shore

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:41 AM

That could be a rocket engine above for all I know.

 

The Mars has 4 old engines, they can only run so long without some care.  Oh, here it is:

 

 

 

Looks like a 10 or 12 cylinder radial.

Pratt 4360s, according to Wikipedia.  4 rows of 9 cylinders  https://en.wikipedia...4360_Wasp_Major

 

It does make for poor optics with the Mars on the beach with Dog Mtn. going up in smoke behind... It's a shame, because it really is a beautiful sight/sound to see her flying, but she is outdated, and, it seems, the opportunities for using her are getting fewer, as smaller, cheaper, and faster aircraft come along.

 

In our outfit, we've replaced 7 CL215s with 4CL415s, and 2 CL215s for a number of reasons - maintenance is easier, capacity is greater, reliability, etc..  Also, getting 100LLAvGas in the quantities needed for the Mars is beginning to be a problem - a Cl215 goes through ~250 gallons an hour when bombing - the Mars has got to be double that, and then some....


Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?

#95 jonny

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:43 AM

Bernard V posted on Twitter that this year around 260,000 hectares of forest has burned in BC. Last year, in total, there were less than 60,000 hectares burned.

 

So is this a bad season or was last year a really, really good season?



#96 jonny

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:45 AM

Pratt 4360s, according to Wikipedia.  4 rows of 9 cylinders  https://en.wikipedia...4360_Wasp_Major

 

Oh my....those must be maintenance nightmares.



#97 North Shore

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:50 AM

So is this a bad season or was last year a really, really good season?

This seems pretty bad - here are some averages: 5yr,8423ha, 10yr,23298ha, 15yr,26744ha, 20yr,22144ha, 25yr,17715ha  more info here:http://www.ciffc.ca/...re/current.php

charts are at the bottom.


Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?

#98 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 03:13 PM

...meanwhile, fire centre says Dog Mountain is now 90% contained.  A full day ahead of Mars-to-the-rescue.

 

 

Status: Active 
• 90% contained 
Fire is surrounded by steep terrain on all sides. The controlled burn performed July 8 & 9th moved through the area in the direction set out by the ignition specialist and removed fuels at the ground level. The crews are now mopping up along the narrow neck of the peninsula, in preparation of putting the fire into patrol status. 

 

http://bcwildfire.ca...Fire.asp?ID=543

 

Now the closest ones left for Mars are Sechelt and Port Hardy.

 

Doh!

 

Consider the $450,000 a gift to keep the Mars in ship-shape.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#99 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 04:12 PM

BREAKING:   Water bomber crashes in the Cariboo
 
A Conair fire boss has crashed while fighting the Puntzi Lake fire west of Williams Lake.
 
Bill Yearwood is with the Transportation Safety Board.
 
“The aircraft was scooping water on Punzti Lake and ran into some undefined problem, at this time, and the aircraft has sunk. The pilot was able to escape the aircraft and is in good condition, minimal or no injuries. He’s been transferred to Williams Lake.
 
Yearwood says they are waiting to hear from him what his understanding of the occurrence is.
 
The TSB is not deploying anybody at this time but they are assessing the occurrence”
 

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#100 Bingo

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:47 PM

 

BREAKING:   Water bomber crashes in the Cariboo
 
A Conair fire boss has crashed while fighting the Puntzi Lake fire west of Williams Lake.
 
Bill Yearwood is with the Transportation Safety Board.
 
“The aircraft was scooping water on Punzti Lake and ran into some undefined problem, at this time, and the aircraft has sunk. The pilot was able to escape the aircraft and is in good condition, minimal or no injuries. He’s been transferred to Williams Lake.
 
Yearwood says they are waiting to hear from him what his understanding of the occurrence is.
 
The TSB is not deploying anybody at this time but they are assessing the occurrence”
 

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me the hear that the plane hit a deadhead. Some of these lakes have a lot of flotsam in the water.



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