92 replies to this topic

[Koru]

^The difference between us capitalists and (them dirty sleazy ) socialists is that we don't try to force what's important to us, on others. We believe in the freedom of the individual, socialists don't.

Sorry phil I really hope thats slightly in jest, I normally enjoy you're posts but that has to be the most pig headed irrational thing I've heard someone say in a loooong time.

Capitalists shove their agendas down everyones throat no less or no more than socialists, as I said I sit on the fence in between both sides, I believe in capitalism to an extent just like I believe in socialism to an extent. Both shove their bile around.

[Koru]

I believe the election results speak for the contrary position.

i don't believe that for a second. We've got two faced politicians on both sides. The election only speaks a certain amount but by no means the whole picture.

We've got a battered province economically, we've got a battered province politically you cannot by any means use that as a genuine argument, what appeared to be the lesser of two evils is turning into the greater of two evils....

[Caramia]

^The difference between us capitalists and (them dirty sleazy ) socialists is that we don't try to force what's important to us, on others. We believe in the freedom of the individual, socialists don't.

Property rights? Copyright Law? Patents?
You going to tell me that Capitalists don't try to force what's important to you on others?

[AnonAnnie2]

I believe the election results speak for the contrary position.

LJ - the ballooning debt - the Liberals knew about the revenue issue BEFORE and DURING the election - neglected to tell the public...neglected to lay out their 'plans', neglected to advise agreements would be ripped up...oh wait...agreements ripped up..wow sounds familiar!

We will never know what the 'results' would have been if we had ALL the information - information we were not given because politicians think we are stupid, to dumb to figure it out. Arrogance at its best.


"when all of the rhetoric is stripped away, politicians are defined by the choices they make in good times and bad.

When it comes time to vote, we pick leaders who make choices that reflect as closely as possible the values we hold.

So we need to get as clear a view as possible of both what is being lost and what is being saved so we can judge for ourselves whether wise choices are being made."

[AnonAnnie2]

and (drum roll please)

Taylor Hired by Bank after Killing BC's Bank Tax

B.C. is broke but she could make $145,000 to $350,000 as a TD director.

(Why, it's none other than Carole Taylor, B.C.'s former finance minister, who last year killed the province's corporation capital tax!)



By Will McMartin, Today, TheTyee.ca



It was an unexpected surprise. A gift, really.
Eighteen months ago, on February 19, 2008, then-BC Liberal finance minister Carole Taylor tabled the province's 2008-09 budget -- her last before quitting politics -- and said she was wiping out B.C.'s corporation capital tax.
For years the big banks had lobbied to have the hated tax abolished, but to no avail. Indeed, over the past three-and-a-half decades, governments of every political stripe -- NDP, Social Credit and BC Liberal -- have seen the corporation capital tax as a way for British Columbians to share in the enormous profits earned in this province by Canada's largest banks.

"The tax exists," former Social Credit Finance Minister Mel Couvelier explained to the legislature in 1987, "largely because the financial industry has often earned large profits and paid little income tax."
(Canada's 'Big Five' banks are headquartered in Toronto. As a consequence, they're largely exempt from paying provincial income taxes.)

Fast forward to August 27, 2009 -- just two weeks ago -- with a news release from Canada's second-largest financial institution, the Toronto-Dominion (TD) Bank. (In terms of market capitalization, the Royal Bank is the country's biggest, followed by the TD, then the Bank of Nova Scotia, the Bank of Montreal and the CIBC.)
The TD was adding another member to its board of directors. Who might it be?


Why, it's none other than Carole Taylor, B.C.'s former finance minister, who last year killed the province's corporation capital tax!

[Newlywednotnearlydead]

Personally, I think all of these performing arts groups should be funded by the audience or they shouldn't exist. There are countless entertainment choices out there that don't require government funds to operate, I'm not sure why they should receive money to stay open. If I open a business and don't get enough customers to make it profitable to stay in business, logically, I should close my doors. My few customers might love the products that I sell, but that doesn't mean that the government should prop me up for the benefit of those few people.

I would also like to read the report that says for every dollar spent on the arts, $1.38 is returned in tax money. My guess is that either it is being misinterpreted or the research is shoddy. It sounds like a perpetual money-making scheme that would pitched by the Sham-Wow guy in an infomercial.

[SeaG]

I can't believe all the controversy around funding the arts, even conservative Alberta spends over $ 20 million a year in subsidies - and they calculate the economic multiplier at 1.28 for every dollar, plus for every $ 1 they put into arts and culture $ 12 is generated!! - the latest study: http://culture.alber...udy_Results.pdf

I was involved in film and theater in my early days, and the private sector companies tended to work in areas of Canada and the US that supported them the most with grants and subsidies - or tax credits.

I've always enjoyed travelling, and without a doubt the most advanced countries or states are great supporters of arts and culture. Look at the UK (free museums and galleries) and Europe.

I may be on the left of centre side, but when I see large cuts to education, the arts and culture - I have to wonder - does the government in power have an ultimate goal?

I'm not the smartest person around, nor was I that great in school or college - but everyone I know has had their lives enriched by access to arts and culture.

And those that say 'user pay' - get your wallets and purses out - art and culture is everywhere you look - just open your eyes.

Dave

[LJ]

[quote name='guyinthesky']i don't believe that for a second.

For GITS and SJ - my point was that people in favour of what the government is doing don't generally go out and have a placard waving party on the street.

Just because you don't see them out there doesn't mean they don't exist.

[VicHockeyFan]

I can't believe all the controversy around funding the arts, even conservative Alberta spends over $ 20 million a year in subsidies - and they calculate the economic multiplier at 1.28 for every dollar, plus for every $ 1 they put into arts and culture $ 12 is generated!! - the latest study: http://culture.alber...udy_Results.pdf

I was involved in film and theater in my early days, and the private sector companies tended to work in areas of Canada and the US that supported them the most with grants and subsidies - or tax credits.

I've always enjoyed travelling, and without a doubt the most advanced countries or states are great supporters of arts and culture. Look at the UK (free museums and galleries) and Europe.

I may be on the left of centre side, but when I see large cuts to education, the arts and culture - I have to wonder - does the government in power have an ultimate goal?

I'm not the smartest person around, nor was I that great in school or college - but everyone I know has had their lives enriched by access to arts and culture.

And those that say 'user pay' - get your wallets and purses out - art and culture is everywhere you look - just open your eyes.

Dave

These studies are bunk. Every person usually has X dollars to spend on extras every month. If XYZ theatre company dies due to lack of funding, I'll go to a play put on by ABC company, or maybe I'll go out to dinner and a movie.

[AnonAnnie2]

[quote name='LJ'][quote name='guyinthesky']i don't believe that for a second.

For GITS and SJ - my point was that people in favour of what the government is doing don't generally go out and have a placard waving party on the street.

Just because you don't see them out there doesn't mean they don't exist.[/quote]

Understood - did you know they would be doing this when you voted last? Funds raised from gaming (not your tax money) no longer directed to arts? sports prog. etc.?

I sure didn't when I voted for them.

[AnonAnnie2]

These studies are bunk. Every person usually has X dollars to spend on extras every month. If XYZ theatre company dies due to lack of funding, I'll go to a play put on by ABC company, or maybe I'll go out to dinner and a movie.

There aren't any studies that I can find (google) that say the conclusions of the research (payback into the community directly from the arts) is bunk.
Got a link?

[phx]

I'm somewhat disgusted that arts, culture, and sports are used to "launder" the dirty gambling money.

By that, I mean gambling is legitimized by pretending it is for a good cause, though they aren't even bothering with that pretense much anymore.

[AnonAnnie2]

I'm somewhat disgusted that arts, culture, and sports are used to "launder" the dirty gambling money.

By that, I mean gambling is legitimized by pretending it is for a good cause, though they aren't even bothering with that pretense much anymore.

I have to admit it seems distasteful.

[Newlywednotnearlydead]

There aren't any studies that I can find (google) that say the conclusions of the research (payback into the community directly from the arts) is bunk.
Got a link?

Most economic impact studies are worthless, as VicHockeyFan says, they ignore substitution effects. They are usually commissioned by an industry who finds an economic research institute to twist the numbers on their behalf.

[SeaG]

Most economic impact studies are worthless, as VicHockeyFan says, they ignore substitution effects. They are usually commissioned by an industry who finds an economic research institute to twist the numbers on their behalf.

Following this logic I would assume the studies that support 'substitution effects' would also be 'worthless'!!

I do agree that anyone can come up with a study that twists numbers in their favour - look at the multi-billion dollar snow-job (no pun intended) studies about the 'spin-offs' of 2010.

What we are talking about is access to arts and culture for all the population.

By the way I also think access to sports and recreation should also be available to all the population - I don't say all the economic benefit studies of subsidizing sports are worthless (except the Olympic studies maybe).

I know the value of grants to amateur sports, my sons both saw the benefits.

The entire argument that 'user-pay' should cover the entire cost, whether for arts, culture, education or sports - is that it restricts access to those who can pay, an increasingly small percentage of the province.

I don't think that is the direction society should go, but I agree that is where we are headed under the current provincial government.

Dave

[LJ]

[quote name='SusanJones'][quote name='LJ']

Understood - did you know they would be doing this when you voted last? Funds raised from gaming (not your tax money) no longer directed to arts? sports prog. etc.?

I sure didn't when I voted for them.[/quote]


No I sure didn't, but I applaud them for it now. When times are good you can fund all sorts of events, some worthwhile - a lot not IMO.

When times are tough you fund the essentials as best you can, however you can.

I find it interesting that the same people complaining about the HST are complaining about the loss of funding for this or that. Where the heck do these people think the money comes from?

I don't like taxes either but I understand that they are necessary in today's world. I fully support health and education spending and most of the other mainstream spending, but when it comes to some of the "fringe" spending I would like to keep my money in my pocket thanks.

As an aside, I am going to a Victoria Symphony production Friday, I will try to drop in and see your show prior to curtain.

[AnonAnnie2]

LJ, banks, up until last year were taxed - one explanition for the tax 'relief' was to help keep that industry 'competitive'.

Subsidy for a for-profit-business and straight out of your pocket via your taxes (because they aren't paying/contributing you and I have to extra to cover them).

Its no wonder we need a HST - a requirement to fill in that gaping hole that was created.


Arts/Sports were funded through
gaming revenues NOT your tax dollars - you can rest easy.

Enjoy the Symphony.

[AnonAnnie2]

Arts/Sports were funded through
gaming revenues NOT your tax dollars - you can rest easy.

LJ - quick question - should gov't. tax dollars or gaming dollars be used to subsidize FOR profit firms?

forgot to mention - looking forward to meeting you on Friday if you do have a opportunity to swing in.

[Phil McAvity]

Sorry phil I really hope thats slightly in jest, I normally enjoy you're posts but that has to be the most pig headed irrational thing I've heard someone say in a loooong time.

Capitalists shove their agendas down everyones throat no less or no more than socialists, as I said I sit on the fence in between both sides, I believe in capitalism to an extent just like I believe in socialism to an extent. Both shove their bile around.

I've already shown how socialists like to take public money and put it into the arts now maybe you give me an example of how capitalists take public money and decide what to do with it.

Caramia, what do property rights, copyright law and patents have to do with public money?

[Caramia]

They are all had to be removed from the realms of the public commons at some point in history in order to be "owned" by private capitalists.
Just as genetic code is now being removed from the realm of the public commons.

I used them as an example of Capitalists agendas that are also shoved down people's throats.