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#1 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 08:53 PM

(Mods: I'm not sure this topic should be in this thread, so if you have a better rubric, please move it.)

From the Oct.11 Victoria News

City takes aim at urination

Don Denton/Victoria News

By Brennan Clarke
Victoria News
Oct 11 2006

Drunken bar patrons eyed as major part of problem

Pop-up toilets, open-air urinal "trees," and automated public toilets dubbed APTs are some of the solutions Victoria city council is looking at the stem the flow of public urination in the city's downtown core.

The devices were identified in a comprehensive report from downtown community development co-ordinator Mike Hill discussed at Thursday's committee-of-the-whole meeting.

Noting that "the provision of public washroom facilities is a global issue," the report cited a lack of public washrooms as a major contributing factor to widespread public urination.

"Pop-up toilets have received a lot of media coverage, but that's only one possibility in addressing public urination," Hill said.

The Pop-up toilet, under the trade name Urilift, are used in a growing number of European cities. The devices can be raised for use during peak hours, then lowered into a cylindrical hole when not in use.

Self-cleaning APTs common in Europe, as well as North American locales such as Seattle and San Francisco, are pricey and attract social problems such as drug-use, vandalism, prostitution and theft of bathroom supplies and fixtures.

The report was the result of close to two years of study, spearheaded by Coun. Charlayne Thornton-Joe, council's downtown liaison.

"I have a lot of tolerance for someone that's homeless, senior or a person who has a health problem," said Thornton-Joe, who toured public washrooms in a number of other cities as part of the initiative.

"I do think it's a right and not a privilege to have access to urinals."

Public washrooms in the Bay Centre are heavily used, but not open after hours. About one-third of tourists surveyed reported difficulty finding a washroom to use downtown.

However, the report found that beer-filled bar patrons are as much to blame as homeless people.

Police can issue tickets for public urination, but those are seldom paid, said Thornton-Joe, adding that moves the city makes must be accompanied by a public education campaign.

"It very frustrating the amount of people that just don't even consider the consequences," Thornton-Joe said, recalling instances of Porsche-driving businessmen and ladies "dressed to the nines" relieving themselves on buildings and in alleyways.

Downtown merchants frequently arrive at work to find one or more people have relieved themselves in the doorway of their business, she added.

Hill said the city plans to install a couple of urine trees in Bastion Square, a regular target of peeing pub patrons.

Coun. Dean Fortin called for a beer tax to help cover the cost of public urinals, an idea that Lowe later rejected as too complicated.

In mid-July, Victoria re-opened the city's only full-time public washroom and stationed commissionaires outside round the clock.

The move has reduced the amount of urination in the stairwell of the city hall parkade and attracted up to 225 user a day.


Sixty-five per cent of those are members of the general public, 20 per cent were deemed to be homeless people and 10 per cent were people "who had been drinking alcohol."

Outside the meeting, Mayor Alan Lowe said the cost of staffing the Centennial Square washroom over a one-year period will be $180,000.

Thornton-Joe said that expense is "well worth the dollars."

Coun. Sonya Chandler said proper bathroom facilities fall into the category of basic amenities that every city should provide.

"I think of it as just part of being a people-friendly community," she said.

"There are several opportunities here for personal dignity."


Ok, I need help understanding this: if there are 225 users of the Centennial Square WCs per day (and from the article, note it says "up to" that number, meaning that there are many days when there are fewer users), that comes to a high of 82,125 users per year. Then the article quotes Mayor Lowe as stating that it will cost $180K to staff that WC for one year (i.e., staff only costs, meaning that there are additional infrastructure/ maintenance costs). But factoring only the staffing costs, this means that it costs tax payers ~$2.20 per whizz. Am I the only one who thinks this is beyond the pale?

I wonder how much revenue could be generated by fining those who urinate illegally on the street -- i.e., enforcing the existing bylaws against public urination?
:?
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#2 aastra

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 10:57 AM

Since those non-enclosed urinals do nothing re: the indecency issues around peeing in public, it seems like the concern here is the smell of urine on the pavement.

If so, then why don't they just pay somebody to hose Bastion Square out at 6am on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays?

#3 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 11:09 AM

If you're a guy using these open urinals in the usual manner (standing up, pants on but unzipped), there's nothing exposed because you're pretty much covered by flared sidewalls as far as the hips.

Interesting point, though: what's more costly -- the urinals or steady clean ups ...or enforcement of not peeing on the street?

Re. exposing oneself in public: I learned this around the issues that came up with "World Naked Bicycle Ride" -- did you know that it's legal for women to be topless in Victoria? I swear I'm not kidding. I don't know about exposed buttocks, and presumably other forms of below-the-torso full frontal nudity are illegal. But toplessness for women is ok. Amazing, eh?
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#4 Holden West

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 11:24 AM

Tragically, toplessness for men is still legal. It should be at least a five-dollar fine.

I think I read somewhere of raising the fine from $35 to $85 for being caught urinating in public.
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#5 aastra

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 11:29 AM

We've all done it at one time or another.

#6 Holden West

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 11:35 AM

^Peeing in public or walking around displaying our pasty white, sallow, sunken, pot bellied chests?
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#7 aastra

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 12:00 PM

I'm offended by that sallow comment.

#8 zoomer

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 06:08 PM

Aastra has a good point (as does Holden..), who here hasn't urinated in public?!

:?:

The Powers That Be should understand that sometimes people will need to urinate, and if there are no open washrooms they will have to go somewhere!! I usually try to find a nice hedge or bush, peeing in doorways is disgusting.

#9 aastra

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 07:02 PM

If a public washroom is needed so badly then why not open up the ones on the Eaton Centre's lower level? That stretch of Broad Street is supposed to be public anyway.

The washrooms at Centennial Square are too far away to be practical for the late night crowd (you can just as easily make a stop at the all-nite place at Fisgard and Government if you're in that part of town).

The washrooms on the causeway are slightly more useful, so why not keep them open all night? (with security)

Then again, what time does the Sticky Wicket close? If you're desperate you can always go there.

Is it all about Bastion Square with this issue? If so, then maybe a public washroom is indeed needed there.

By the way, that stairway coming out of the back of the Yates Street parkade is atrocious. It's in an embarrassing state of disrepair, I have to say. Absolutely pathetic.

#10 aastra

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 07:07 PM

By the way, Mr. Alan Perry (God bless him but he can say silly things sometimes) claims it's one of the biggest complaints of tourists. No public washrooms anywhere downtown.

Come again? If tourists are indeed complaining about a lack of washrooms then maybe the real issue here is getting people (tourists and residents alike) informed?

#11 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 09:47 PM

Victoria News article puts the touch on party poopers, er, pee-ers:

Bar flies to blame for public urination

By Don Descoteau
Victoria News
Oct 13 2006

Police officers' tally finds that street people aren't behind foul behaviour

When it comes to public urination downtown, Victoria's street population appears to have received a bad rap.

Figures tabulated from a two-weekend Victoria Police Department focused enforcement team (FET) campaign aimed at curbing liquor-related incidents during back-to-school time for university and college students illustrated anything but.

Of the 18 tickets handed out for public urination over the weekends of Sept. 15-16 and Sept. 29-30, all were issued to bar patrons while none were issued to street people, according to a report accompanying the numbers.

Those numbers don't surprise Ken Kelly, executive director of the Downtown Victoria Business Association.

"The downtown business owners who have got a grasp on what happens in the evenings realize that it is not the marginalized (urinating in doorways), it is the bar patrons," he said.

Ticketing the almost exclusively male offenders is a good step to take to curb the problem, Kelly said, but he suggested that a campaign inside the bars might be effective as well.

Cleaning up the mess in the morning has fallen upon city staff, he added, as well as members of the downtown clean and safe crew hired by the DVBA.

People seemed to get the message after the first target weekend. Where 15 people were ticketed for public urination Sept. 15-16, just three were written up Sept. 29-30.

On any given weekend in September, hundreds of bar patrons empty out into the streets at closing time.

That in itself can cause problems for police trying to keep a lid on unlawful behaviours, whether they are Criminal Code violations or municipal bylaws, the category which includes public urination.

While there is no reason patrons can't use a restroom before they leave the bar, the lack of food merchants open after bar closing tends to exacerbate the problem. (Edit: why? because food soaks up urine inside the body or something?)

"Typically people are hungry and so it's off to the hot dog stand, or the pizza place, or the pita place and people just hang around," said Victoria police Insp. Les Sylven. (Edit: oh, I get it: people eat something, and then they really have to go. Uh, but wait a minute, I thought it's the lack of food merchants that exacerbates the problem... Am I missing something, or is someone going out of their way to find excuses for pissy behaviour?)

Throw alcohol into the mix and people tend to exhibit behaviour that they likely wouldn't at other times, he said, such as starting a fight or peeing on a closed shop's doorstep.

Victoria city council is looking seriously at the issue of public washroom facilities downtown, including the investigation of high-tech toilets. (Edit: this is a non-sequitor)

Some of the other numbers that stood out on the report were tickets for consumption of alcohol in public - 21 were handed out the first weekend, 19 on the second - and having a chattel on the sidewalk, 10 the first go-around, one the second.

As well, 23 Criminal Code offences were written up over the two weekends for everything from assault to breach of probation.

Cyclists were also targeted, with 15 people nabbed for riding without a helmet, eight for having no light and eight more for riding on the sidewalk. (Edit: Good. Nab those idiots. Cyclists, together with people in so-called mobility scooters who think they're entitled to roll along at speeds typically achieved by top marathoners, they make sidewalks unsafe for pedestrians.)

While it was noted that having uniformed FET officers closer to the clubs was beneficial - they provided firsthand witnesses to fights, where police generally have to chase down witnesses after the fact - only one charge of fighting in public was issued over the two weekends.

Sylven noted that the downtown activity requiring police attention is generally cyclical. Summer is clearly the busiest, but such times as September and January, when nightclubs offer promotions aimed at students, tend also to be busy times, he added.

The department plans to undertake a similar focused enforcement campaign in January.


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#12 aastra

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 10:22 PM

Sounds like the real problem here is a lack of washrooms at the late night pita places. Thus, the solution is obvious. Slap a heavy "no washroom" tax on latenight pita places.

#13 G-Man

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:14 AM

I still don't understand why we can't put the nice ones like San Fran has up around town. Say ten of them scattered around the downtown core.


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#14 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:18 AM

Yes, those look nice. They remind me of the Belmont Building! (And they're for both sexes, yay!). I wonder how much they cost, and how difficult it is to keep them from being vandalized?
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#15 Oxford Sutherland

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:35 AM

I also like those San Francisco ones.

#16 Holden West

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:39 AM

^They cost $200,000 US per unit and there are twenty five of them throughout [url=http://www.sfgov.org/site/sfdpw_page.asp?id=32434:68040]San Francisco[/url:68040]. Councillor Sonya Chandler would likely be dead set against advertising on the toilets. (The amount of advertising space proposed would be "enough to stop my heart," she said in response to the proposed temporary Parkside fencing).

"In the beginning, there were a lot of reservations about advertising and the size of the kiosks," said Jake Szeto, Project Manager of the Automatic Public Toilet and Public Kiosk Program at the San Francisco Department of Public Works. "But it is a success. Otherwise the city wouldn't have expanded the program."

"Maintenance is not a big issue, vandalism is not a big issue," Szeto says. "The complaint is that some of the toilets are being used for illegal activities -- drug use, prostitution, that kind of stuff -- generally in areas where those activities are already a problem." As in Queens, there is also an aversion in individual neighborhoods. "Everyone thought the toilet is a great idea, but put it in someone else's front yard," said Szeto.


"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#17 Oxford Sutherland

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:46 AM

Here's one in the UK



#18 G-Man

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 10:01 AM

obviously made by the same people. I think the one in SF cost 25 cents.

$200 000! That is insane. Why do they cost more than than the Ford GT? It would seem that this is a relatively easy piece of factory made equipment.

I mean actually you can build a decent house for that much!

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#19 Holden West

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 10:02 AM

The Seattle ones were all stainless steel--offering a broad tempting canvas to taggers. yet these green ones look like they'd be fairly resistant to vandalism (That one above even has an educational message, Sonya! )

Seattle[/url:7856d] [url=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/287615_toilet05.html:7856d]seems[/url:7856d] to be having problems but I think that could be solved with an initial police/security presence and a strict "zero tolerance" policy for drug dealing, prostitution and associated loitering.

This is the company that makes them:

[url="http://www.hering-bau.de/home_e.html"]http://www.hering-bau.de/home_e.html

When it comes the merger of high-tech with matters scatological, nobody beats them Germans!
"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#20 Oxford Sutherland

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 10:04 AM

Maybe the high price has something to do with them being self-cleaning?

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