58 replies to this topic

[Ms. B. Havin]

From today's Times-Colonist, two items relating to the DVBA's call for a more visible police presence: [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=af8ddcfc-e008-46ef-b51f-1cea99a9b6cc&k=30193:22395]Downtown too scary, shops say[/url:22395] (a full-length article by Louise Dickson), and, in the "Letters" section, [url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/letters/story.html?id=17292f1d-23b5-4637-8a3c-ee7271e0f3e0:22395]Downtown needs bigger police presence[/url:22395].

From the article:

The Downtown Victoria Business Association is calling for more police officers to patrol the streets because customers are too scared to shop downtown.

The growing reluctance of people to enter the core because of the increasing numbers of homeless and drug-addicted people means businesses are running at just 60 per cent of their potential, says association chairman Matt McNeil.

"Staff and customers are losing confidence in what is being done to address the social issues," MacNeil said. "And there's the perception we don't have enough police officers. It's about visibility and people get a great comfort level when police are visible."
(...)
[Police Chief Paul Battershill] warned that the city can't police its way of out homelessness, poverty and inequality.

Business owners are increasingly frustrated by the fact people don't feel safe downtown, said MacNeil. On Saturday, a 12-year-old busker on Government Street was kicked by a woman who tried to rob her of $5. In the ensuing altercation, the plate glass window at Murchie's was smashed.

Favourite oxymoron in this article:

Police estimate about 250 homeless people live downtown's.

Battershill pointed out that "statistics show Victoria is pretty safe," which underscores, however, just how much this is a perception issue and that you can't ignore it. Perceptions create realities, too.

From the letters, Matt MacNeil (quoted in the article) writes:

I am writing in response to a growing frustration within the business community about the general deterioration in the sense of personal security downtown.

I am told repeatedly by our business owners that their staff and customers are losing confidence in what is being done to address the social issues downtown. Victoria police officers are doing everything they can to work with as many partners as possible to deal with this problem. At the Downtown Victoria Business Association we are also working on solutions.

But we cannot do this alone. To this end, we are working to build a coalition of stakeholders under the umbrella of One Message, Many Voices to identify a specific course of action that we can collectively take to create a cleaner, safer, more appealing downtown.

Victoria police are already working on critical elements of the social challenges that we face, including the creation of community courts and the most recent initiative to spearhead the provision of temporary shelter for some of the most visible homeless population.

We would also appreciate police adding a critical element: The addition of more uniformed officers walking the downtown beat. We acknowledge that a lack of officers currently stands in the way of an immediate and sustained commitment to this request. However, we are prepared to provide the Victoria Police Department with our political support and a commitment to seek the assistance of other business interests to support an increase in the number of officers, with an emphasis on those serving in a uniformed beat capacity in our downtown.

We estimate that as a result of the public's growing apprehensions about downtown, our businesses are operating at approximately 60 per cent of their potential. If steps are not taken to address eroding public confidence in our downtown, the situation will become worse and have a very negative effect on our city's overall economic and social well-being.

We will continue committing our resources to bring about change, but we would also appreciate the police department's utmost efforts to increase the number of uniformed officers walking the streets of our downtown.

Matt MacNeil,

Chairman,

Downtown Victoria

Business Association.

[G-Man]

Police estimate about 250 homeless people live downtown's.

Umm I thought it was a bit higher than that.

Last year City of Victoria and various social agencies did a count that estmated about 700 people lived on the street or used shelters in Victoria.

Read the whole report here:

http://www.coolaid.org/publications/Homeless_Survey.pdf

[Ms. B. Havin]

Yes, you're right -- the figure is much higher. I suspect that something got cut off in the article: note the "downtown's," as though Dickson had written something else originally, but it got axed when copy-edited.

The part that was oxymoronic (or at least jarring, when I read it) is the idea of the homeless "living" d/t the way you or I might "live" in our houses or apartments. (I.e., it should perhaps say "survive," not "live"?)

(and PS: thanks for posting that link to the CoolAid survey!)

[Holden West]

BTW, regarding the senseless and tragic murder of rugby player Courtney Walls in '97 mentioned in the "Downtown Too Scary" article--he unwisely chose to get into a confrontation with an obnoxious and abusive street youth.

One way to help the lack of police situation is to get them out of hospital emergency rooms where they have to sit around for hours upon hours while the people they bring in are processed and treated and dispatched.

[G-Man]

That was one person in 10 years. How many people have been killed in car accidents in the burbs doing their shopping at a mall.

[Mike K.]

The gist of the article: suburbanites are fearful of walking from their parking spaces (already pissed that they had to P-A-Y!!) to retail establishments. What's the solution? Whine for a bit, then concede for the 'nth time that Victorian's ought to pay more taxes to maintain peace and order in "their" downtown.

Leonard and Causton must burn the paper everytime an article like this appears For neither of them feel guilty about not giving a rats *** about the situation minutes from the borders of their respective feifdoms.

[Ms. B. Havin]

^Derf, re. gist of article: that's not the impression I'm getting from this article, but maybe I'm being slow. I don't count Rockland, Fernwood, Jubilee, Fairfield, James Bay, Vic West -- all those Victoria (City of) neighbourhoods -- as suburbs, therefore the people who live there aren't "suburbanites." Sure, the suburbanites aren't coming downtown, but I think what the DVBA is saying is that the people in Victoria neighbourhoods aren't coming downtown enough, either. They're going elsewhere. And the DVBA is saying, "look, there's a perception that it's not a fun or safe experience, not least because of a sense that there's too much scuzzy-ness downtown." What this builds on is that too many people feel that there is nothing to stop anyone from getting in their face. And in psychological terms, many might feel more able to be downtown safely if they saw more cops walking the beat, because they would feel that cops represent some presence to appeal to, in case of trouble.

Or perhaps they feel it would heighten their ownership of the street -- I think too many people feel like they can't "own" downtown because it has been abandoned, so they're not going to go in there like some vigilante, either. For example, I have repeatedly witnessed mid-day drug deals outside the Open Door on Pandora (when it was still open, and before Rev. Al did finally ask the police for help -- for which the poor man had to apologize profusely to his community, that's how ridiculously polarized this "the man against us" BS has gotten!). Deals involving fat cats in expensive cars, street people couriers, and so on. I saw these things while parked on that little side street at Pandora, next to the Conservatory. I was furious seeing these pusher-scum in fine suits making their filthy deals, using street druggies to prey on other street people, but there was nothing I could do in the immediate term: no cop just around the corner to walk over to, to say, "Hey officer, you might want to take a look at what's going down right now." Sure, I could have copied license plates and made notes on descriptions, but you know, I was waiting for my children to get out of a class, and the sheer power suggested by those pricey cars intimidated me. Besides, I felt that if I reported license plates to the police, it would just get lost in the Big Circular File in the sky.

In other words, there comes a point where a person asks herself, "what's the point?" And that's where we're at here. It's both a perception thing (yes, downtown is a lot safer than many people think), but it's also a reality thing insofar as there's no one to turn to when you do see something bad happening. It's that "what's the point" thing that helps feed the sense that downtown is abandoned to forces beyond your control. A couple of beat cops or more isn't going to change that overnight, but their presence will help create a counter-impression: yes, there is a point, it's called a person (the cop), vs. the seeming pointlessness of making a report which ends up in some bureaucratic slush pile.

@Holden: good point re. cops having to spend hours at hospitals, doing paperwork.

[G-Man]

To a certain extent I guess I have been numbed to the "dangerous activity" on our streets. As I don't perceive it as any worse than before. I guess more police walking beats would help but that does not solve any of the underlying problems, one of them being that the City of Victoria is paying for the problems of the region.

[Mike K.]

I do not believe it's the urban "Victorian's" who fear their downtown, it's those who live outside of the municipality (or those who have been and continue to be fearful of downtown no matter what the place is like and regardless of their place of residence). Victoria-proper makes up 20% of the population base of the region. Surely if businesses are said to be operating at "60%" of capacity the meagre 20% of Victorian's can't be solely responsible for the woes of business that depend on some 250,000 esidents for their business (and 350,000 extended pop, not to mention the millions of annual tourists). On any given day the folks walking around downtown tend to live in or near downtown and support businesses in or near downtown. So it all comes down to folks from neighbouring munis feeling uncomfortable and asking Victoria's tax payers to clean up "their" downtown to make suburbanites comfortable. Oh, and they should throw in free parking while they're at it.

Those who live in or near downtown, such as myself, do not feel that downtown has been abandoned. Quite the contrary, actually, as urbanites feel downtown has vastly improved. And the perception that police on every street corner will solve problems is misguided. When police presence increases, the seediness doesn't dissipate but merely migrates elsewhere. Growing up downtown I saw this happen time and time again. Ten, even twenty extra cops on the streets won't give individuals the security blanket they feel they'll need as the laws governing chance dictate in a state of need help is nowhere to be found

Perhaps what the media should do is stop glamourizing the fear and focus on those who are comfortable in the downtown core. But then again individuals happy with the growth and evolution of their downtown don't sell newspapers in a Victoria deathly affraid of its core.

Now don't get me wrong as I recognize there are issues with Victoria's core, but they're not as dire as the media makes it appear (they emphasize the fear by focusing on it as though it were collective). Articles like the one above remind me of the *gasp* 12-storey sky-stealing skyscraper proposals bound for James Bay!

[aastra]

I don't normally defend popular perception but in this case I'm not sure I like how we're weighing the meaning of "safety" or "safe".

CHEK news was telling us just a couple of weeks ago how safe the parkades are, despite the graphic footage of drug induced mayhem they were showing. Yes, these images are abominable, but no, you're not in any physical danger. Whew! That's a relief. My question is, who the hell are journalists or cops or anybody else to tell me when my loved ones are safe or unsafe? Individuals will make that determination themselves, thanks very much. Don't tell me it's safe, show me how it is and let me make my own determination.

They interviewed a young lady on that very segment and she said she felt safe in the View Street parkade, but the irony was she returned later to find her car had been broken into. Is a community safe just because it turns a blind eye to rampant property crime? Ignore the crime and it doesn't exist?

Derf, I'm going to disagree with you and say the Victoria media has always glossed over the city's darker sides. Victoria's property crimes, assaults, drug deals...they're always a cuter and cuddlier variety than the dastardly stuff happening in (you guessed it) Vancouver. What's cute and cuddly about an innocent guy getting his eye knocked out on a downtown street because some thugs mistook him for somebody else? What's cute and cuddly about an upstanding citizen getting flayed like a fish at noon on a weekday in front of hundreds of people? Just look at the way they've covered the issue of gated alleys and such. The journalists claim the problem is with the business person and his perceptions, rather than the reality of the break-ins and the vandalism that the business person has experienced. One shop owner put a gate up beside his store because there had been a rape on his property! Is that evidence of a safe downtown?

A house on my old street has been broken into twice in 2006. Should my folks feel safe?

The Walls murder is singled out because it ended in a death, but the fact is there have been plenty of other horrendous incidents in Victoria over the years. Just because the innocent person in question doesn't get killed doesn't mean everything is fine.

If people feel unsafe downtown then I have no problem with adding more beat cops. But I think it's a much better idea to add more law-abiding residents before we get any brilliant ideas about more cops, more homeless, more whatever.

Question for Ms. B. Havin: every Victorian knows about the garbage at Pandora and Quadra. Any theories on why the police were so clueless about it?

We've had people on this forum snap pictures at random downtown and inadvertently capture unseemly and/or illegal activities.

One time I was coming into town on the PCL bus and I witnessed a very odd little sequence at Douglas and Yates. I was convinced I was seeing a teenage girl getting recruited into prostitution.

So do the cops simply not see any of this stuff?

[aastra]

I think too many people feel like they can't "own" downtown...

I think this is right. When I'm in a bad mood I say Victorians treat downtown like the region's toilet. Dump all the crap there and avoid it as much as possible.

We've grudgingly allowed a few hundred working, taxpaying Victorians to live downtown in the last few years. We need to start encouraging them to live there. That's how we'll change downtown for the better. We need to have respect for downtown. Stop treating it like a toilet. Stop dumping the problems of the wider city (and other cities and regions) on top of it.

[Ms. B. Havin]

Question from aastra:

Question for Ms. B. Havin: every Victorian knows about the garbage at Pandora and Quadra. Any theories on why the police were so clueless about it?

I don't know. I don't know how (or whether) they were "clueless" about it, or whether it had something to do with this being Rev. Al's turf and the cops weren't welcome there, or what. I think there's a lot of anger & dysfunction all around: cops mired in paperwork and/or buying into the idea that bigger & faster technology is going to provide some sort of magic bullet; and the "outsider community" (enthralled to "victimology") banding together against "the man" even if it's against their own self-interest (because they end up protecting pushers and dealers and pimps).

@Derf: I don't believe in victimology, which means I believe that people have an array of choices to make every day. The visibility of an occasional cop on his beat might help some people make the right choice. To suggest that they're naturally scum who will just wash into other areas is defeatist; it's like saying "the poor will always be with us," and meaning "so we don't have to do anything about it." Again, what the article about the DVBA's request seemed to say in my reading of it was 1.we need some help so that people can perceive this place as safe and some beat cops would provide steps in that direction, and 2. we do need the social housing, all the programmes we can get, etc. Nowhere did the article suggest that either the journalist or the DVBA was proposing tons of cops as "the" answer. Also, just because it's not your perception that d/t is unsafe doesn't mean you can dismiss other people's perceptions. That's like telling them that their reality doesn't exist. Perceptions determine each individual's reality to a huge extent, and discounting that does nothing to address the problems, either. Besides, aastra pointed out a number of examples that suggest that the "unsafe" perception isn't just evil media hype. Victoria is pretty damn ugly in way too many spots.

[Ms. B. Havin]

And yes (@ aastra), we need more people actually living downtown.

[gumgum]

But perhaps Derf's perception has more weight because he lives d/t. Whereas much of what is fear derives from those of whom aren't exposed to dowtown everyday - people in the burbs.
But then again, maybe Derf's perception is skewed from desensitisation.

[Mike K.]

Good points by all.

I will agree that my perception of downtown is vastly different because of my background. I'm too comfortable with the place to be aware of the sorts of details the day-tourist or suburban visitor may pick up.

I'm still not convinced about the extra police presence presented as a possible solution to the perceived problems. Every spring the PD sends out dozens of officers to "clean up" downtown prior to the tourist season. They arrest drug dealers, petty theives, pimps, prostitutes and johns left right and centre. For several weeks the downtown area has a Lysol-type cleanliness to it but eventually the problems return. Beneath that cleanliness, however, is the dispersed criminal element not apprehended by the cops that finds its way to periphery neighbourhoods. Key places are Fernwood, Vic West and increasingly the southern fringes of Saanich (btw, are you folks aware that prostitutes now regularly stroll the Bay Street/Esquimalt Road area?).

aastra has indeed made the excellent point several times that what downtown Victoria really needs is an infusion of residences. The bickering over at City Hall stalls valuable projects that will do more to encourage a healthy and vibrant downtown than a police blitz ever will.

[Holden West]

Chamber of Commerce comments and commisserates:

-----

Downtown 'good place' for business
Social issues have hurt some merchants, but core is still safe, chamber head says

Louise Dickson
Times Colonist

Tuesday, October 17, 2006

The perception of social problems in Victoria is hurting businesses, but statistics show the downtown core is very safe, said Bruce Carter, CEO of the Greater Victoria Chamber of Commerce.

"We certainly hear that from some merchants downtown," said Carter yesterday. "Yet downtown remains a good place to do business."

Businesses in and around Streetlink Emergency Shelter and the Needle Exchange -- near the intersection of Blanshard and Cormorant streets -- have definitely been affected by Victoria's growing social problems, said Carter.

"As with an urban core, there are some areas that are more challenged than others."

Carter believes the city could follow Rev. Al Tysick's lead at Our Place by delivering services to the disadvantaged without negatively affecting their neighbourhood.

The Downtown Victoria Business Association estimates businesses are operating at 60 per cent of their potential "as a result of the public's growing apprehension about downtown," chairman Matt MacNeil wrote in a letter to the Times Colonist. The association wants to see more uniformed police officers walking the beat to make people feel comfortable about coming downtown.

The chamber hasn't done a survey on the negative impact of social problems on businesses, said Carter.

"The statistics would be very difficult to get because you'd be talking about profit margin from businesses," he explained.

Tourism Victoria hasn't measured the impact either, said Melissa McLean, senior vice-president of marketing and communications. Comments on panhandlers appear in the exit survey, but the number is low, she said.

Robin Adair, chairman of the GVCC, said the chamber receives complaints from some people in the hotel industry in certain areas of the city.

"Swans (Hotel and Brew Pub) is very unhappy. We hear from them a lot," said Adair. "The (Fairmont) Empress has raised it publicly as an issue. At the CEO breakfast of the largest companies in Victoria, one of the biggest issues is the street situation. Businesses see a trend downtown they're not happy about."

Capital Iron manager Mike Black said his store is doing well in spite of Victoria's homeless but adds that if the situation gets worse, it could impact business.

"People park in our lot and go straight to Capital Iron. I walk up the street and see people cross to the other side of the road to avoid Streetlink. It makes people feel uncomfortable and ultimately, it affects business," said Black.

Wendy Graham, owner of Sunday's Snowflakes and member of the DVBA, doesn't think safety is a huge issue for many business owners downtown. A handful of homeless people are on the streets near her women's clothing store.

"But I've become friendly with them. I know them and they know who I am and I have no problem asking them to move along," she said.

"There are people who are going to cry wolf, but things aren't any different here than in Europe and the rest of the western world. We have homeless, but we're not alone."

The federal government has been remiss in dealing with the issue of homelessness, said Graham, adding that amalgamation would improve the situation.

"Victoria is overlooked for funding because its population is too small. If we amalgamate the four core municipalities, the federal and provincial governments might pay more attention to us," she said.
© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2006

[VicHockeyFan]

Yesterday's CFAX poll:

Yes or no? Do you avoid downtown because of the number of homeless; panhandlers; and drug users that you're likely to encounter?

Answer Votes %
Yes 489 72%
No 191 28%
Total: 680 100%



I think that's a matter of concern. Then again, at a median age of 78, most CFAX listeners also avoid downtown because they do not know how to parallel park/drive/walk/think.

[G-Man]

They have horseless trolleys downtown!

[Mike K.]

Yesterday's CFAX poll:

Yes or no? Do you avoid downtown because of the number of homeless; panhandlers; and drug users that you're likely to encounter?

Answer Votes %
Yes 489 72%
No 191 28%
Total: 680 100%



I think that's a matter of concern. Then again, at a median age of 78, most CFAX listeners also avoid downtown because they do not know how to parallel park/drive/walk/think.

FINALLY someone comes out and says it. The people who say they avoid downtown because of the "number of homeless; panhandlers; and drug users" are the sorts who would avoid downtown anyways. They simply use the panhandlers and some of the visible street life elements as an excuse.

[zoomer]

@Derf: I don't believe in victimology, which means I believe that people have an array of choices to make every day. The visibility of an occasional cop on his beat might help some people make the right choice. To suggest that they're naturally scum who will just wash into other areas is defeatist; it's like saying "the poor will always be with us," and meaning "so we don't have to do anything about it."

Ok, here's my take, different, but similar perhaps?: "the poor will always be with us, so let's do something about it."

I seriously believe that. While I totally believe in personal responsibility, all societies, both currently and historically have a relatively small (fluctuating) percentage of citizens who will not conform to the norms of society and be deemed a burden. There are many people who are homeless due to mental illness, who are virtually unemployable for a variety of reasons, drug addicts, etc. Do we ignore these people, or do something about it? It's far cheaper in the long run to house these people and provide ongoing support, with the hope that some of them may again become functioning members of society.

But no, government cutbacks have closed mental hospitals, or severely limited access to drug rehab programs, etc, not to mention that a single person receives a little over $500 per month in welfare, if they qualify. How do you live on that after paying your rent?!! You don't, so you live on the street, then the businesses which campaigned for lower taxes (and as a result less public services) turn around and complain about the resulting social problems!! Ah, the cruel irony of it all. While I am sympathetic to the business owner's plight, you reap what you sow.