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The Climate Change / Global Warming Debate


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#2141 Mike K.

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 03:11 PM

You know what’s interesting? This article doesn’t actually mention how many turbines there are: https://www.smithson...kill-180948154/

Neither does this one. What’s up with that?: https://www.google.c...om/amp/15683843

I agree, though, that we could solve a lot of our climate-related issues by outlawing cat and dog ownership, or at the very least limiting ownership to rescuing feral animals only, and limiting ownership amounts (sorry, nine cats is the limit, sir).

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#2142 shoeflack

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 03:48 PM

There are fewer than 60,000 wind turbines in the US, so every year that wind turbine will kill upwards of 700 birds per year. That's a lot.

 

Hold on. There are 59,884 wind turbines in the United States (per the USGS). The US Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that 140,000 to 500,000 birds are killed each year by wind turbines (per the USFWS). I'm no mathlete, but even at the high number, that's only 8.3 birds per turbine. Where are you getting 700 birds from?

 

Regionally, the US Fish and Wildlife Service estimates the following: Bird/turbine collisions in California are estimated to be an average 7.85 birds/turbine/year, higher than in the East (6.86 birds/turbines/year), the West (4.72 birds/turbine/year), and the Great Plains (2.92 birds/turbine/year).



#2143 Mike K.

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 03:52 PM

Oh yeah, bad math for sure.

I wrote 60k, but plugged in 6k into the computer. Oops.

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#2144 Mike K.

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 03:59 PM

That’s a lot of birds that died unnecessarily, no? Half a million is a lot. And that’s just 60k of those turbines. Imagine if there was 500,000.

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#2145 shoeflack

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 04:05 PM

That’s a lot of birds that died unnecessarily, no? Half a million is a lot. And that’s just 60k of those turbines. Imagine if there was 500,000.


I’m not really sure what you’re arguing...that wind turbines are bad for the environment? Are you suggesting other energy sources are better for the environment?

#2146 shoeflack

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 04:11 PM

That’s a lot of birds that died unnecessarily, no? Half a million is a lot. And that’s just 60k of those turbines. Imagine if there was 500,000.


And let’s put this in perspective. Something like 5 billion birds die in the United States each year, including up to a billion a year via collisions with buildings. Yet we’re all here advocating for building tall/building more in Victoria.

So basically wind turbines account for 0.0001% of all bird deaths annually.

#2147 Mike K.

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 05:06 PM

Well, they kill more birds than nuclear and hydro power, right?

Flying squirrels too.
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#2148 Mike K.

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 05:19 PM

Hold on now. Wikipedia cites upwards of 573,000 bird deaths per year in the US.

Maybe we don’t even know the actual amount? Maybe it’s much higher than what’s been estimate. We just went from 40k to 573k.

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#2149 shoeflack

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 05:36 PM

Hold on now. Wikipedia cites upwards of 573,000 bird deaths per year in the US.

Maybe we don’t even know the actual amount? Maybe it’s much higher than what’s been estimate. We just went from 40k to 573k.


The Wikipedia article cites a study that has a range between 20k and 573k. All reports are ranges and we keep assuming the top end of the range to the accurate. So hey, it could also be a lot lower. And as the US Fish and Wildlife Service states, as more are build, more deaths will occur. That’s fairly obvious. Just like as more tall buildings are built, more bird deaths will occur.

Ultimately, it’s a drop in the bucket when looking at total bird deaths regardless of cause. A rounding error.

#2150 shoeflack

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 05:42 PM

Well, they kill more birds than nuclear and hydro power, right?

Flying squirrels too.


Sure, but those power sources effect other animals more. I don’t think nuclear power plants kill too many birds directly (aside from being killed by steam discharge), but they do kill billions of fish that are sucked into nuclear power plant cooling systems.

Or hydro, which destroys the natural ecosystem during the construction of a dam. I mean, every power source is ultimately going to cause some harm. It’s just about what ones cause the least harm.
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#2151 Ismo07

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:29 AM

That’s a lot of birds that died unnecessarily, no? Half a million is a lot. And that’s just 60k of those turbines. Imagine if there was 500,000.

Windows kill more Mike and cars...  Remember your plastic bag theory that even if we eliminate them all it would be such a low % of plastic reduction.  Well this would be a very low % of bird population.  I'm sure they can be placed in areas where they could reduce even more accidental deaths or at least in spots where we couldn't count them.



#2152 Mike K.

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:38 AM

But hold on, we’re still just dealing with a tiny amount of wind turbines and killing nearly 600,000 per year, potentially. That includes large birds of prey including eagles.

I realize I’m out on a limb here, but I had no idea the per-turbine kill rate was that low. I was lead to believe it was much higher when I read an account of someone coming upon a de-winged eagle that had been struck by a turbine and lay dying on the ground below.

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#2153 Ismo07

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:05 AM

But hold on, we’re still just dealing with a tiny amount of wind turbines and killing nearly 600,000 per year, potentially. That includes large birds of prey including eagles.

I realize I’m out on a limb here, but I had no idea the per-turbine kill rate was that low. I was lead to believe it was much higher when I read an account of someone coming upon a de-winged eagle that had been struck by a turbine and lay dying on the ground below.

Yeah it's a lot for sure.  I did read that the amount of turbine account for 6% of the energy need in the US (can that be right).  This would mean 10 M birds per year if these turbines were to make up 100% of the energy.  (is that right?)

 

That does sound like a lot but if windows kill 100 M is that a big deal?  Just improving windows so they are less likely to kill birds would drop that by at least 10% to make up for it.  And if we buried power lines and rode bikes birds would be all over the place I guess.... :)


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#2154 shoeflack

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:06 AM

But hold on, we’re still just dealing with a tiny amount of wind turbines and killing nearly 600,000 per year, potentially. That includes large birds of prey including eagles.

I realize I’m out on a limb here, but I had no idea the per-turbine kill rate was that low. I was lead to believe it was much higher when I read an account of someone coming upon a de-winged eagle that had been struck by a turbine and lay dying on the ground below.

 

When you look at 600,000 per year on its own, ya it looks big. But in context it's a small number. Heck, the 99 nuclear reactors in the United States kills billions of fish annually. The two-reactor Indian Point Energy Center in New York kills an estimated 2 billion fish per year. That's 1 billion fish per reactor annually. But in context, that's also a relatively small number of fish.

 

Context is important in helping to deter sensationalism and keeping people informed of the actual reality of the facts.



#2155 Mike K.

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:12 AM

We’re still dealing with a tiny number of turbines, keep in mind.

But I get it. I didn’t realize that I fell for a wildlife-related sensationalist piece. I’m a sucker for that sort of thing, I guess.

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#2156 rjag

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 07:56 AM

http://cdec.water.ca...app/RescondMain

 

California major reservoir levels as of August 19 are all doing extremely well.

 

A good sign after 7 years of drought


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#2157 Ismo07

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 08:05 AM

http://cdec.water.ca...app/RescondMain

 

California major reservoir levels as of August 19 are all doing extremely well.

 

A good sign after 7 years of drought

 

Looks really good.  Doesn't look like they really have many major water sources, or is that a specific selection of them?  Rainfall for June was less than 37% of historical average for the state (from the same site).  Data is funny sometimes.  Did it just rain a ton in the first 5 months to fill those ponds up or are they fill with BC water?  Less fires?

 

Ah I see Oct-Jun was a little over 133% of historical average so that helps.


Edited by Ismo07, 20 August 2019 - 08:07 AM.


#2158 Mike K.

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 08:42 AM

We’re heading into September at 75% of the Sooke reservoir.

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