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The Climate Change / Global Warming Debate


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#1741 LeoVictoria

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 06:31 PM

I’d rather see people in developing countries live like us. I’m sure they’d like to as well.


Indeed they do. And there is zero doubt what that would mean for the planet.

Requires many more advancements in technology to enable that in a sustainable way

#1742 Mike K.

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 10:08 PM

Every area is insignificant on a global scale. If Bejing ceased all their CO2 emissions tomorrow it wouldn’t put a dent in the problem either.

 

If that's actually the case then whatever our region does is laughably irrelevant.


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#1743 LeoVictoria

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 10:59 PM

If that's actually the case then whatever our region does is laughably irrelevant.

It seems the concept of a global problem is impossible for you to grasp.

We could also pour our motor oil down the drain and it would make no noticeable difference to the planet. And yet, most people understand why we don’t do this. In fact most people learn this from their parents quite early on when we throw some garbage on the ground and they ask the question of “what if everyone did what you’re doing?”

Now, to what length should we go to take action? Open question for sure and there is surely little point in pushing further than is economically justifiable given current technology. That kind of action will need to be taken by nation-level actors to be effective.

Edited by LeoVictoria, 15 January 2019 - 11:00 PM.

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#1744 Mike K.

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 01:57 AM

Quite the contrary, Leo. But I do recognize that virtue signalling and feel-good measures have a direct effect on the quality of life of many individuals in our society, even if the net result of their well intentioned actions are of no actual consequence.

What does have a consequence (or an immediate, tangible effect) is cleanliness, cordiality and respect. That would encompass the whole garbage on the ground and oil down the drain thing.

Moral superiority in absence of respect and understanding towards the needs and desires of our neighbours has lead to many, if not most, of our societal problems. Being helpful (as a wise man once told me) is about the best thing we can do for our communities. Passing judgment is perhaps the worst.


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#1745 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 05:23 AM

Indeed they do. And there is zero doubt what that would mean for the planet.

Requires many more advancements in technology to enable that in a sustainable way

so one strategy to fight climate change might be to deny or at least impede developing countries from opening power plants etc.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 16 January 2019 - 05:24 AM.


#1746 spanky123

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:03 AM

Now, to what length should we go to take action? Open question for sure and there is surely little point in pushing further than is economically justifiable given current technology. That kind of action will need to be taken by nation-level actors to be effective.

 

So lets say that we vastly increase taxes and devote our resources to reducing greenhouse gas emissions in a world where most other countries and certainly the large producers are not. Aside from the debate on what overall effect on the environment we would have, what is not debatable is the effect that we would have on our economic competitiveness relative to other countries. If companies and our top executives leave for lower taxed and regulated jurisdictions then how is that going to further support our efforts? 


Edited by spanky123, 16 January 2019 - 10:03 AM.


#1747 Greg

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:34 AM

So lets say that we vastly increase taxes and devote our resources to reducing greenhouse gas emissions in a world where most other countries and certainly the large producers are not. Aside from the debate on what overall effect on the environment we would have, what is not debatable is the effect that we would have on our economic competitiveness relative to other countries. If companies and our top executives leave for lower taxed and regulated jurisdictions then how is that going to further support our efforts? 

 

I think the correct approach is that we should address climate change not by moving backwards to an agrarian society, but by moving forward to a clean tech society. If we create the right incentives and pull the right economic levers, we can encourage significant innovation in the green energy sector. And if that happens, we increase our economic competitiveness by taking a lead position in an emerging space, and we disproportionately contribute to reducing emissions - "punching above our weight" - by creating new energy solutions. Imagine if those developing countries not only had access to enough energy to build modern first-world economies, but did so using Canadian produced technologies. That would be a win all around.

 

I don't have a huge amount of faith in the government getting this right, and I really doubt the City of Victoria is the right governmental level through which to address any of this.

 

This needs to be handled more intelligently. But that doesn't mean just waving our hands and saying we're smaller than China and nothing can be done. IMHO.



#1748 RFS

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:52 AM

The only way you are going to have a noticeable effect on global carbon emissions is by dropping some kind of bio-weapon on the developing world. Ok?  That's it



#1749 rjag

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 11:12 AM

I think the correct approach is that we should address climate change not by moving backwards to an agrarian society, but by moving forward to a clean tech society. If we create the right incentives and pull the right economic levers, we can encourage significant innovation in the green energy sector. And if that happens, we increase our economic competitiveness by taking a lead position in an emerging space, and we disproportionately contribute to reducing emissions - "punching above our weight" - by creating new energy solutions. Imagine if those developing countries not only had access to enough energy to build modern first-world economies, but did so using Canadian produced technologies. That would be a win all around.

 

I don't have a huge amount of faith in the government getting this right, and I really doubt the City of Victoria is the right governmental level through which to address any of this.

 

This needs to be handled more intelligently. But that doesn't mean just waving our hands and saying we're smaller than China and nothing can be done. IMHO.

 

All fair points. I think though that when you are using a teaspoon to bail the water from a sinking boat, you're going to need a lot of teaspoons as opposed to a few buckets. Yes we should all be making changes in our lives to reduce our impact, and I believe we are.....however if we want to really nail this then the focus needs to be on coal in a big way. Until coal is reduced massively, our personal local impact isnt even statistical noise



#1750 spanky123

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 11:18 AM

The only way you are going to have a noticeable effect on global carbon emissions is by dropping some kind of bio-weapon on the developing world. Ok?  That's it

 

Ban milk and beef and you would immediately have a 20% reduction in greenhouse gases. 

 

Breathing also accounts for about 10% of co2 emissions but surprisingly nobody seems to count that in their totals nor do they advocate for population controls!


Edited by spanky123, 16 January 2019 - 11:18 AM.


#1751 Mike K.

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 11:39 AM

Banning pet ownership would be a major step forward, would it not? Consider all of the emissions required just to feed cats and dogs, gerbils and guinea pigs, and the resources required to ensure their health and wellbeing, and that's over and above the carbon footprint of each pet.


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#1752 nerka

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:24 PM

Not me. But I agree that anti-science folks are rampant on both sides. The anti-vaxxers and people aftraid of wifi and smart meters seem to be more left on the political spectrum. Just as deluded though.

anti-vaxxers are all over the political spectrum. There's been quite a bit of research on it. https://theconversat...arization-81001



#1753 spanky123

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:43 PM

Banning pet ownership would be a major step forward, would it not? Consider all of the emissions required just to feed cats and dogs, gerbils and guinea pigs, and the resources required to ensure their health and wellbeing, and that's over and above the carbon footprint of each pet.

 

cows burps (believe it or not) are the big ones. The burps contain methane which retains almost 30 times more heat than co2. 1 billion cows add up.



#1754 nerka

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:47 PM

The whole argument that Canada is less than 2 % of GHG emissions so we shouldn't do anything is deeply flawed. It is true that Canada alone reducing emissions will make little difference to the global total but nearly every country can make that same argument.  That is why the issue requires action from all or most countries.

 

Over 40% of global GHG emissions come from countries contributing less than 2% to global emissions. The only countries with emissions large enough to make a difference acting on their own would be the US and China.  But even if those two acted aggressively, their progress would be undercut if other countries like Canada did not act



#1755 nerka

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:51 PM

What does have a consequence (or an immediate, tangible effect) is cleanliness, cordiality and respect. That would encompass the whole garbage on the ground and oil down the drain thing.

 

Garbage on the ground bad. Pollutants in the air OK?



#1756 spanky123

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:53 PM

The whole argument that Canada is less than 2 % of GHG emissions so we shouldn't do anything is deeply flawed. It is true that Canada alone reducing emissions will make little difference to the global total but nearly every country can make that same argument.  That is why the issue requires action from all or most countries.

 

Over 40% of global GHG emissions come from countries contributing less than 2% to global emissions. The only countries with emissions large enough to make a difference acting on their own would be the US and China.  But even if those two acted aggressively, their progress would be undercut if other countries like Canada did not act

 

Few people dispute your logic or that of Greg, but if we are the only ones contributing then we will be broke and swimming while at least others will have enough to afford a boat.


Edited by spanky123, 16 January 2019 - 12:53 PM.

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#1757 RFS

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 01:01 PM

And it’s even worse when other countries are fomenting and funding these attitudes and initiatives here, basically to eliminate competition

#1758 Danma

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 01:24 PM

Canada may be small, but as a first world country, Canada punches well above its size in regards to its economic, cultural and social influence.

 

Implementing our own solutions for clean technologies to reduce our carbon footprint and live in a more sustainable fashion opens the door to becoming an exporter of these very same technologies. Canadian ingenuity in the oilfield and forestry industries have become technologies used all over the world. In the same fashion, there's going to be huge opportunities in a variety of industries – everything from turnkey residential solar installations to automobile and bicycle battery recycling to water reclamation and filtration – that will become ubiquitous in the years and decades ahead.

 

My concern is that culturally Canadians are so invested in the status quo I think we're going to miss these opportunities, particularly when embracing these technologies will make a positive difference in regards to long term sustainability of humanity as a whole. 


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#1759 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 01:28 PM

Canada may be small, but as a first world country, Canada punches well above its size in regards to its economic, cultural and social influence.

 

A conservative estimate of Canada’s existing carbon-absorption capacity, based on land area and the global carbon-absorption average, indicates that Canada could already be absorbing 20 to 30 per cent more CO2 than we emit. Using the same calculation, the “Big Four” polluters of China, the U.S., the European Union, and India, which together are responsible for a whopping 60 per cent of global CO2 emissions, release 10 times more CO2 than their combined land area absorbs.

 

 

https://business.fin...ing-it-a-secret

 

already doing our part.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 16 January 2019 - 01:29 PM.

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#1760 Mike K.

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 06:55 PM

Garbage on the ground bad. Pollutants in the air OK?


Everyone contributes to the grand equation in their own unique and special way.

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