278 replies to this topic

[Holden West]

Satellite aquarium, satellite art gallery, satellite conference centre extension...

When are we going to get some real city-sized projects instead of these mini-spinoffs?

[aastra]

Here's a better question: if you don't put the satellite aquarium there then where the heck do you put it? Ogden Point is off limits. Potential inner harbour sites are off limits.

Victoria's new year's resolution should be to stop waffling and actually take some positive action on something.

Methinks the reason "satellite" (mini) things are safe to discuss is precisely because they're mini. Can't have real amenities, that would be awful.

[rayne_k]

Rather than just having a walkway over Douglas St. from The conference center. It would possible to build an enlarged conference center stretching accross the road, utelizing the air space above the road and the property on the other side. As for an aquarium; I don't think it would fare much better than the 'Experience'

Ahh I think that Ressen is on to something here...

Instead of having the conference centre (just?) utilizing the air space, what about extending the lower level below Douglas street to the CG? It would be costly but this would make it a more cohesive space, especially if there were also a second story connection, and help veer away from the the conference "campus".

Vancouver has some great examples of heavily used sub grade spaces - pacific centre mall, Robson square, Koerner library.

Now I still think we need developed waterfront centre space.. but to this I ask: where is it written that a city can have just one downtown conference venue hmm? A water-side, west coast-themed centre could be entirely different to the crystal-themed conference centre.

I'm envisioning something simple, featuring cedar beams, green technology, etc. While I love it, I have to admit that aside from heritage value and some nice art pieces the current conference centre doesn't really fit in with my idea of pacific-coast Canada.

[Holden West]

I don't think the soil conditions easily permit excavations there. Remember, the CG is constructed on a "raft" that floats over the soft soil.

[aastra]

...where is it written that a city can have just one downtown conference venue hmm? A water-side, west coast-themed centre could be entirely different to the crystal-themed conference centre.

I like this idea a lot if it's on the Belleville terminal property (on the James Bay side of the harbour, in other words).

[Holden West]

Award it to the Grand Pacific Hotel, demolish the neighbouring Days Inn, build a walkway connecting the new GP Hotel and Conference Centre to the new Belleville terminal and banquet hall.

Thank you. My consulting fee is $120,038.

[G-Man]

It seems to me that actually saying that the city needs a new Conference Centre is verboten. Officials seem to hint at at it but I don't think I have ever heard a suggestion by anyone that it should actually built. Performance Arts Centre sure I here that almost once a week and that is perhaps the one thing that we may not need in Victoria.

[rayne_k]

I don't think the soil conditions easily permit excavations there. Remember, the CG is constructed on a "raft" that floats over the soft soil.

Curses.. lol and here I thought that I had come up a nice temperature controlled idea - they did manage to get quite far with the underground parkade, so it can't be entirely out the realm of possibility (just a lil' thing called money LOL).

Aastra if we keep both spaces, they are close enough that related conferences can occur concurrently in the summer, in the off season there can be more options available for downtown campus use (RR, SFU, etc). It's all of 5 minute walk from the Empress entrance to Belleville.

[Urbalist]

- Underground parking access from the southside (Belleville)
- close off Douglas St access; vehicle intrusion minimized
- replanted and landscaped garden, expanded over previous asphalt
- no overhead walkway structure to Crystal (cost, maintenance, visual intrusion), use mid-block crosswalk
- two (2) storey, terrace roof conference/trade-show building on old bus station site with pedestrian and service connectivity to existing conf ctr, and with u/g parking
- ten (10) storey (thanks Scaper/Holden), green roof building (uses to be determined by market) north of the Crystal, with u/g parking

[Urbalist]

but to this I ask: where is it written that a city can have just one downtown conference venue hmm?

When both the City and it's centre are small to begin with. There is more demand for larger spaces, not several smaller ones, and the larger ones are more economically beneficial to the City.

The Vic Con Ctr can't accommodate more than about 500 people at a time, so it focusses on conferences and conventions. No exhibitions or trade-shows. There are several hotels in Vancouver that have more meeting-oriented space than our Con Ctr.

There's also the service aspect, costs of having pods of seperate staff in distant buildings is inefficient. The Empress handles all food/beverage service in the existing Con Ctr.

[G-Man]

I still say build one big venue to the west of Belleville terminal that area is huge.

I've posted this before but just look at the difference in size of our present Conference Centre to the area now made up of docks and parking lot.

[G-Man]

City bids on Crystal site



Dunc Malcolm/Victoria News
Consultant Rod Cameron speaks to Victoria city council last week about the costs and benefits of transforming the historic Crystal Garden into an annex of the Victoria Conference Centre.


By Andrea Lavigne
Victoria News
Jan 17 2007


The City of Victoria is throwing its hat into a bidding war for Crystal Garden.

Council members gave staff the green light last week to bid on the historic building, after hearing from a consultant hired to look at possibility of using the building as an additional exhibition space for the Victoria Conference centre.

“There’s something to be said for the fact that while the existing space is very attractive, it is not distinctive in the sense organizers are now looking for. The Crystal Garden is. It’s a spectacular space, it speaks to the history of the city, it speaks to the depth of experience that exists here,” said Rod Cameron of Criterion Consulting.

However, the city is not alone in eyeing the glass building, left empty since the BC Experience went belly-up last September.

The lease comes up for grabs at the end of January and at least five other parties have expressed interest in the space.

While the building is owned by Provincial Capital Commission, Colliers Macauley Nicolls is handling offers on the lease on behalf of the bankruptcy trustee. The Royal Bank, the only secured creditor, is owed more than $6 million.

“Time is of the essence,” confirmed finance director Mike McCliggott, who told council sources of funding include: borrowing, infrastructure grants and the city’s $3 million economic development fund.

Several upgrades would be needed before the existing building could be used as a conference centre, including: a food and beverage area, storage facilities, service access requirements like a freight elevator and loading area, and secure pedestrian crossings connecting to the Victoria Conference centre across the street.

Capital upgrades to the building were estimated to cost between $2 million and $5 million.

Cameron told council that while the revenue generated from an expanded conference centre isn’t huge – ranging from a $150,000 loss annually to a potential gain of $270,000 – the economic spin-off could be worth $36-40 million.

Cameron argued the current conference space is small, the shared spaces are inefficient and it lacks dedicated exhibit and ballroom space. However, the addition of Crystal Garden would not only fix the current woes, it would add to the “prestige factor” of events and draw repeat clients.

“Many cities dream to build buildings of this nature for a conference centre and we have it right here existing. For us to no go after it to make this happen would be a huge loss,” said Mayor Alan Lowe. “I hope the PCC, trustees, etc. will look at (our bid) very seriously.”

The Royal Bank and Colliers Macauley Nicolls will pick the best offer, but the Provincial Capital Commission has right of final approval.

As property owner, the PCC can not unreasonably withhold transfer of the lease, said Coun. Pam Madoff, who also sits on the PCC.

“One of the problems of the past in leasing it is that it’s a very specific building and trying to force uses into it that are not complimentary has presented problems,” she said. “And I think this study has shown that it’s a very complimentary use for the building itself as well as for the conference centre.”

Madoff added that the PCC’s mandate is to connect Victoria to all British Columbians and this is a chance to “connect the capital to the world.”

Madoff also noted that the present conference centre was designed with an element to link over the street to the Crystal Garden.

“So it’s not as if this has never been considered in the past,” she said.

The City of Victoria looked at making a request for proposal for the building in 2004, but bowed after it became apparent that the cost of seismic upgrading to the building would be too expensive.

At the time, PCC chair Bill Wellburn, said he was disappointed the city pulled out of the running.

Council will discuss its bid in-camera this week.

[G-Man]

Our View: Crystal unclear; What do you think?




Jan 17 2007

An aquarium at the Crystal Garden.

What a great idea.

Oh, it sounds, on the face of it, a lot like the botanical garden that was there before. Instead of land-dwelling animals and birds, the aquarium would have water dwellers.

Maybe it will work. Maybe it won’t.

As a satellite of the Vancouver Aquarium – which is what’s being proposed – a Victoria aquarium would draw upon the resources of the much larger institution. That in itself should enhance the viability of a such a Victoria venture.

Of course, that doesn’t guarantee success. If the BC Experience, and the Crystal Garden conservatory before it, couldn’t draw enough visitors to pay the bills, an aquarium will have to be a stellar attraction. The overhead will surely be greater than for those earlier endeavours.

An aquarium would also have to compete with the long-established Undersea Gardens, which has the advantage of being underwater whereas an aquarium would have to draw its seawater from two blocks away.

Make no mistake, world-class aquariums draw huge crowds. For example, nearly two million visitors a year flock to the Monterey Bay Aquarium in California.

Yet even at that, the institution depends on about $30 million a year from the David and Lucille Packard Foundation to maintain its world-class programs and research. (It also bears noting that the late David Packard, a co-founder of the computer company Hewlitt Packard, provided the seed money to build the aquarium in the first place.)

Maybe what the Crystal Garden needs is a wealthy patron to subsidize whatever attraction goes in there. It’s not among the proposals on the list, but a glass-in basketball court might attract the attention of a certain homegrown NBA star. Or not.

Other parties – including a consortium of non-profits and the City of Victoria – are also interested in the gardens. They all seem to have forgotten one thing – that the building is a gigantic greenhouse. That made it a great place for tropical plants and animals and not too bad for a heated swimming pool. To make it suitable for displaying delicate museum artifacts, as is being proposed by some, would require a lot of retrofitting.

The city has now decided that the building would make an ideal annex for the convention centre across the street. As before, it’s estimated that millions of dollars would have to be spent on the building to bring it up to snuff.

But didn’t the BC Experience principals sink a bunch of loot into the building already?

Isn’t that part of the reason the Royal Bank has a multi-million dollar bankruptcy claim?

Oddly enough, the lack of a ballroom at the conference centre is cited as one of reasons the centre is looking to expand. Unfortunately, the Crystal Garden ballroom was eliminated during the conversion to the BC Experience.

Oh well, the Provincial Capital Commission, which owns the building and ultimately must be holding the bag, can always bring back the lemurs.

Better yet, why not go really retro and recreate the swimming pool?

At least that’s something we know the city needs.

What do you think?


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[aastra]

For the life of me I can't figure Pam Madoff out. So she supports the idea of an elevated bridge over the street to link the two buildings?

Urbalist's idea for re-routing traffic makes much more sense. Do that and a crosswalk across Douglas suddenly becomes plausible.

[G-Man]

Yeah I was surprised she supported it. You would think that it would block heritage views of the methodist church, the peaks of the Empress and the Crystal Garden Building itself. Personally I like the idea of the connection between the buildings if it is going to be a conference centre because if they don't have a physical attachment it is a waste of time.

While I like Urbalist's idea, there is no way that you are going to any part of the Empress Garden disturbed without having perople freaking out.

One way that it could be done is to have the garage entrance be right at edge of Douglas street where the driveway currently is and then just spread the conference centre over top.

[aastra]

Madoff also noted that the present conference centre was designed with an element to link over the street to the Crystal Garden.

“So it’s not as if this has never been considered in the past,” she said.

I'm reminded of Emerson's famous quote about foolish consistency.

[aastra]

“So it’s not as if this has never been considered in the past,” she said.

And it's also not as if Victorians had never considered putting very tall buildings on Douglas Street.

[Baro]

To be fair, victoria's never had a pedestrian bridge downtown. The closest we had was the thing conecting the old eaton's center.

But we never specifically had a modern walkway over douglas street conecting the crystal gardens to the conferance centre built in the early 21st century. Victoria never had that, thus it woudl destroy what victoria is.

We can only build things that already exist. Like when they built the empress hotel, there was precident, since the empress hotel was already built eternally, just like all buildings in victoria pre 1970's. Eternal timeless buildings that were not even built, let alone put up by developers. Victoria existed as a perfect whole since before the big bang, and any attempt to change it is an affront to the very foundation of the universe.

Pictures like that above were added to victoria's archives to give the city a false sense of history, but they are nothing but lies to tempt our faith. We must not stray from the truth path of a dead city sealed in a jar of formaldahyde that the outside world may admire from afar.

[Icebergalley]

Had a peek at the VCC as I wandered past...

I can see where provision may be made for an overpass..

But rather than speculate on one of the 2 posibilities...

I've always found it both interesting and useful to see a site plan or some of the concept plans to see what the people who were around "back then" are telling us...

If anyone has easy access to these it would be beneficial to post them...

I'm still puzzled about why the discussion is focused on the cross Douglas link...

Have yet to see a "program" that can be used to evaluate what's being done.. Urbalist put some parameters on the Why? 500 persons only..

City Council is bidding on the CG..

What part of the VCC's program will that fulfill..?

[G-Man]

I'm guessing that they could offer more restaurant and party type ammenities to Conference goers.

If done right the Crystal Gardens could be an amazing venue for things like award ceremonies, galas, Large dinner banquets etc... Though the Empress might not like the competition.