3331 replies to this topic

[57WestHills]

Do I have to repeat the stories of cops from neighbouring municipalities frozen in confusion when a suspect staggers down the middle of a street straddling the border?

Of course if are CRD amalgamated they’d probably keep the same(ish) radio channels so that wouldn’t really change... it’ll get better with amalgamated dispatch though.

This was initiated by Saanich Council, not the Mayor, and I hear it is because of Chief Paid-Too-Much’s contract there.

Oak Bay and Central Saanich seem opposed. Stew is opposed.

My personal opinion, based on some knowledge and a tinge if realism is that:
- no one with the RCMP can realistically afford to get rid of them so that won’t change;
- Oak Bay, the most resistant, is also the most ripe to just become Saanich. They’re already so tightly integrated;
- Central Saanich in a perfect world should be with North Saanich RCMP. That won’t happen, so I also think it should be Saanich.

In a perfect world I’d say keep VicPD as is. Saanich should also include Oak Bay, Central Saanich and North Saanich / Sidney. West Shore, Sooke, and Shawnigan as one. My logic is:
- big police forces get expensive and inefficient. Sure we are paying too many chiefs but that’s a drop in the bucket versus other potential growth costs. It’s a bit counter intuitive but most studies find 300-500 type members are the sweet spot.
- the CRD is geographically small enough that resources would be too easily sucked into downtown in a one force model;
- community-based policing here, generally, actually works quite well. Particularly in the three smaller muni departments. One big force would doubtlessly lose that ability;
- the three areas I muster together would lead to three closely sized departments around 250 members a piece. Ish. Workload would be around 50,000 files a year on 2016 numbers.

Edited by 57WestHills, 12 January 2018 - 04:13 PM.

[jonny]

I've not really thought about this until you mentioned it, but is there something out there that prevents regional fire departments? I've seen many regional police departments, but never a regional fire department.

I found this article about what happened to all the fire departments when the area around Halifax was all amalgamated into the HRM. It's quite interesting. Much of what else I have read is that regional fire departments have been opposed by the public, versus seemingly more support for regional police departments.

I'd be very surprised if View Royal and Oak Bay don't have too many firefighters, fire trucks, fire admin staff, etc.

[jonny]

There's no point in combining forces unless Saanich and Victoria PDs combine. Oak Bay would eventually follow suit, IMO. If the Westshore wants to stay RCMP, I don't really care. At least then we'd have Greater Vic PD and RCMP only.

[Nparker]

Combine the forces into a similar model as a 3-city amalgamated capital region: the Core, the Peninsula and the West Shore. 

[tjv]

sure just get the votes but good luck getting that from Oak Bay

[Cassidy]

Westshore RCMP, and Capital Region Police Department ... done.

Capital Regional District Fire Department ... done.

 

Start with the police and fire, and then move to mayors, council and administration. Amalgamate, amalgamate, amalgamate.

 

"The people" have already spoken in the last round of municipal elections ... time to act.

[tjv]

^I am going to quote you and change a few words

 

I couldn't give a crap about amalgamation in a thread about cops...

 

What an utterly ridiculous comparison, and what a boorish and tasteless attempt to derail a thread.

[Cassidy]

Yeah, I see what you did there ... unfortunately it doesn't really work when one considers that talk of amalgamating police departments in a thread about police departments, and talk of overall amalgamation is the same path.

 

You crashed a thread about police to talk about your friend the construction worker - so, pretty different things.

 

But I obviously hurt your feelings back on September 23rd, so I'm sorry ... really.

Edited by Cassidy, 13 January 2018 - 07:11 PM.

[jonny]

sure just get the votes but good luck getting that from Oak Bay

Honestly, the big boys Saanich and Victoria shouldn't really care what ye olde piddly little Oak Bay does. We can worry about the small fry once Saanich and Victoria PDs are combined.

[tjv]

Yeah, I see what you did there ... unfortunately it doesn't really work when one considers that talk of amalgamating police departments in a thread about police departments, and talk of overall amalgamation is the same path.

 

You crashed a thread about police to talk about your friend the construction worker - so, pretty different things.

 

But I obviously hurt your feelings back on September 23rd, so I'm sorry ... really.

no you didn't hurt my feelings, but there is a thread on amalgamation elsewhere.  I said it to make a point that police don't deserve any special treatment over any other profession when they get hurt or die in their daily work

 

anyway, its all good

 

Honestly, the big boys Saanich and Victoria shouldn't really care what ye olde piddly little Oak Bay does. We can worry about the small fry once Saanich and Victoria PDs are combined.

If you say it this way then Oak Bay will never care and always be a separate department

[Rob Randall]

I'm skimming this long thesis which seems to back up 57WestHill's assertion that economy of scale diminishes for police departments after a certain population number is reached. This is directly tied to amalgamation issues.

 

The author claims there may be certain police activities like record keeping which lend themselves to amalgamation better than others.

 

It also mentions the interesting fact that police officers interacting with the public, especially cases where they de-escalate situations before a crime is committed, are not easily captured in crime stats. In fact, in some jurisdictions that track miles traveled as a measure of how extensive a patrol car covers the area there is actually an incentive to ignore an incident and drive on.

 

I think what makes our situation unique is the policing experience in Downtown is vastly different that that in other municipalites.

[David Bratzer]

- community-based policing here, generally, actually works quite well. Particularly in the three smaller muni departments. One big force would doubtlessly lose that ability;
 

 

Respectfully, I disagree. Community policing is not sending a police officer to every call no matter how ridiculous said call. That is not community policing. This is just my personal opinion but I would challenge anyone to find a department more engaged with the community anywhere on Vancouver Island:

 

- Largest reserve constable program in British Columbia

- Online crime reporting

- Public crime-mapping software

- BarWatch program

- Most active bait car program on the Island

- Introduced the bait bike program

- Strong support for restorative justice

- Leading the fight against fentanyl

- More officers dedicated to ACT teams than anywhere on the Island

- More Community Resource Officers than anywhere on the Island

- Comprehensive business and residential surveys

- More bike and beat patrols than anywhere else

- Innovative social media engagement

- Leader in supporting crime-free multi housing

- RESPOND multi-agency bylaw inspection program

- Ceremonial honour guard

- VicPD app on iPhone & Android

- Comprehensive bike registry program

- And on it goes...

 

I see the same trends with Vancouver PD. It would be hard to argue that Vancouver PD is not one of the most engaged, innovative police departments in the country.  So bigger does not necessarily mean a lack of community policing. And vice versa.

[David Bratzer]

Duplicate 

Edited by David Bratzer, 14 January 2018 - 04:21 PM.

[57WestHills]

David’s post.

I don’t disagree at all. I’m saying the larger the Department the harder that is to accomplish; I do think the three smaller munis are better at being out in the community but I don’t think VicPD is bad at it.

The only place I may not be in relative lock step with your opinion is Vancouver. The Department is very Visible in the community. However, I’m not satisfied that visibility and engagement are the same thing... nonetheless I think very highly of almost every department in BC so the point is somewhat academic.

Edited by 57WestHills, 14 January 2018 - 11:44 AM.

[VicHockeyFan]

How's the fight against fentanyl going?

[jonny]

no you didn't hurt my feelings, but there is a thread on amalgamation elsewhere. I said it to make a point that police don't deserve any special treatment over any other profession when they get hurt or die in their daily work

anyway, its all good

If you say it this way then Oak Bay will never care and always be a separate department

I live in Saanich, work in Victoria and rarely go to Oak Bay. To be blunt, I don't really care what those behind the tweed curtain do. It's a small city that has little crime and practically zero population growth with minimal growth plans. The outlier shouldn't dictate broader public policies, such as police force amalgamation.

[Bingo]

Honestly, the big boys Saanich and Victoria shouldn't really care what ye olde piddly little Oak Bay does. We can worry about the small fry once Saanich and Victoria PDs are combined.

 

I know there are folks on VV that like to rag on the Oak Bay Police but they are all part of the larger policing picture, and until things change they deserve the respect of all of us.

[tjv]

I live in Saanich, work in Victoria and rarely go to Oak Bay. To be blunt, I don't really care what those behind the tweed curtain do. It's a small city that has little crime and practically zero population growth with minimal growth plans. The outlier shouldn't dictate broader public policies, such as police force amalgamation.

Hey fair enough.  Based on your argument, I live in Central Saanich and I don't care about the CoV with high crime rates, huge homeless problems, drug problems, etc etc either.  Sounds like CoV needs to double their policing budget instead of trying to steal policing from other municipalities

[jonny]

I know there are folks on VV that like to rag on the Oak Bay Police but they are all part of the larger policing picture, and until things change they deserve the respect of all of us.

Hey now, it's not that I don't respect Oak Bay or Oak Bay PD. You're not picking up what I'm putting down. I'm saying if Oak Bay doesn't want to join forces, that shouldn't hold anything up on regards to Saanich and Victoria combining forces.

[Rob Randall]

I was reminded of this ancient story that appeared in the Globe and Mail back in 2009:

 

"There's not much question we're moving down the road to a regional police solution for the whole southern peninsula, from the ferry terminals to Oak Bay to the West Shore," [Chief Jamie Graham] said during an interview.

The single rural/urban department, which would serve 12 municipalities, could have up to 400 officers. Victoria, population 80,000, currently has 242 officers, while the next largest police force, Saanich, has 149.

[...]

Earlier this month, after a man set himself on fire at Victoria's Royal Jubilee Hospital, there was debate whether Victoria or Saanich should respond.

 

 

https://www.theglobe...article1206169/