742 replies to this topic

[VIResident]

The Hon. Marion Buller is eminently qualified for this purely ceremonial role, you dolts. your comments make you look bigoted.

 

A tad more than 'ceremonial' but right of you to point out, and I'll add 'make you look bigoted' is also a tad more than 'look'.  

[spanky123]

Shelagh Rogers "   She proudly acknowledges her Métis and Scottish ancestry. ", so was only her Metis part appointed Chancellor?

 

 

Doesn't Metis imply that the person is of mixed heritage? On that basis isn't it redundant splitting it out like this?

[Tom Braybrook]

Doesn't Metis imply that the person is of mixed heritage? On that basis isn't it redundant splitting it out like this?

The post responded to implied that because Ms. Rogers was of Metis heritage it was confirmation of the fact that only Metis/indigenous persons could qualify for the position.

 

The "split" was a direct quote from staements made by Ms. Rogers herself - although she gave no indication of her blood quantum - and there lies an entire other discussion.

 

There was no evidence provided that her Metis heritage influenced her appointment to the position, it was simply stated as fact. Some further clarification seemed necessary.

 

Perhaps, just perhaps, she was selected for similar reasons she received the Order of Canada.

 

" she was named an Officer of the Order of Canada "for her contributions as a promoter of Canadian culture, and for her volunteer work in the fields of mental health and literacy."^[7] Her Order of Canada citation reads: "Shelagh Rogers is a passionate journalist, activist and promoter of all things Canadian. A nationally renowned radio broadcaster, she is best known for hosting the CBC’s “This Morning” and “Sounds Like Canada.” Also highly regarded for her advocacy work, she has spoken out to help destigmatize mental illness, and has raised awareness and funds for adult literacy initiatives"

 

Brilliant broadcaster and accomlished journalist. Advocate for mental health and adult illteracy - not a bda resume!

 

But no, couldn't be - must have been her Metis heritage was the clear implication.

 

Following is an outline of her awards and achievements;  - look it over and tell me how many of the mention her Metis background.

 

 

• Rogers won an ACTRA Award in 1983 for Best Host/Interviewer.

• In 1997, she was named Companion of Frontier College for her significant contribution to the cause of literacy.

• In 2000, she was awarded the John Drainie Award for making a significant contribution to broadcasting in Canada.

• In 2002, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from the University of Western Ontario.

• She received the New Brunswick Literacy Award for continuing the legacy of Peter Gzowski in 2002.

• Also in 2002, she was named ADSUM House Successful Canadian Woman of the Year.

• She received a Transforming Lives Award from CAM-H in 2008.

• In 2008, Rogers received a special Peter Gzowski Literacy Award of Merit, the Distinguished Body of Work Award, for her outstanding contributions to literacy.

• In 2008, she was awarded The Canadian Foundation for Women's Health Award for Journalism in Women's Health.

• Also in 2008, she received a Champions of Mental Health Award (Media) from the Canadian Alliance on Mental Illness and Mental Health.

• In 2010, she received the Hero Award from the Mood Disorders Association of Ontario.

• Native Counselling Services of Alberta awarded her their Achievement in the Aboriginal Community award for her work on reconciliation.

• Rogers was the 2010 Mental Health Voices Award Recipient from the Canadian Mental Health Association BC Division.

• She was also named Ambassador at Large for the Canadian Canoe Museum in 2010.

• In 2011, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Mount Allison University.

• In 2011, she was named an Officer of the Order of Canada.

• In 2012, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Memorial University.

• In 2012, she was the Bronze Radio Winner for the documentary North Words from the New York Festivals Best Radio Programs Awards.

• In 2013, she received an Honorary Doctor of Education from Nipissing University.

• In 2014, she was the Bronze Radio Winner for "Alice's Nobel" from the New York Festivals Best Radio Programs Awards.

• In 2014, she was presented with the Queen’s University Alumni Humanitarian Award.

• In 2014, she received an Honorary Doctor of Letters from Vancouver Island University.

• The Canadian Publisher’s Association named her an Honorary Publisher in 2014.

• In 2015, the Writers at Woody Point festival named its venue after Rogers, who has been a long-time host of the event.^[11]

• The Ontario Writers’ Conference 2015 Cornerstone Award was won by Rogers and her long-time producer, Jacqueline Kirk.

• In 2016, she received the inaugural Margaret Trudeau Award for Mental Health Advocacy.^[12]

• She was recognized as a Paul Harris Fellow by The Rotary Foundation of Rotary International in 2016.

• She has been named an honorary member of the League of Canadian Poets.

• She was, for many years, the Honorary PGI National Chair for the Peter Gzowski initiatives for literacy.

• In 2017, she received an Honorary Doctor of Literature from Carleton University.

• In 2019, she received one of the inaugural Library and Archives Canada Scholars Awards, recognizing the outstanding contribution of individuals who have dedicated their lives to the creation and promotion of the country’s literary and historical heritage.

• In 2019, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Queen's University.

• Also in 2019, she received an Honorary Doctor of Letters from the University of Manitoba.

 

Now explain to me how the original comment referred to was anything but doltish!

• Rogers won an ACTRA Award in 1983 for Best Host/Interviewer.
• In 1997, she was named Companion of Frontier College for her significant contribution to the cause of literacy.
• In 2000, she was awarded the John Drainie Award for making a significant contribution to broadcasting in Canada.
• In 2002, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from the University of Western Ontario.
• She received the New Brunswick Literacy Award for continuing the legacy of Peter Gzowski in 2002.
• Also in 2002, she was named ADSUM House Successful Canadian Woman of the Year.
• She received a Transforming Lives Award from CAM-H in 2008.
• In 2008, Rogers received a special Peter Gzowski Literacy Award of Merit, the Distinguished Body of Work Award, for her outstanding contributions to literacy.
• In 2008, she was awarded The Canadian Foundation for Women's Health Award for Journalism in Women's Health.
• Also in 2008, she received a Champions of Mental Health Award (Media) from the Canadian Alliance on Mental Illness and Mental Health.
• In 2010, she received the Hero Award from the Mood Disorders Association of Ontario.
• Native Counselling Services of Alberta awarded her their Achievement in the Aboriginal Community award for her work on reconciliation.
• Rogers was the 2010 Mental Health Voices Award Recipient from the Canadian Mental Health Association BC Division.
• She was also named Ambassador at Large for the Canadian Canoe Museum in 2010.
• In 2011, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Mount Allison University.
• In 2011, she was named an Officer of the Order of Canada.
• In 2012, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Memorial University.
• In 2012, she was the Bronze Radio Winner for the documentary North Words from the New York Festivals Best Radio Programs Awards.
• In 2013, she received an Honorary Doctor of Education from Nipissing University.
• In 2014, she was the Bronze Radio Winner for "Alice's Nobel" from the New York Festivals Best Radio Programs Awards.
• In 2014, she was presented with the Queen’s University Alumni Humanitarian Award.
• In 2014, she received an Honorary Doctor of Letters from Vancouver Island University.
• The Canadian Publisher’s Association named her an Honorary Publisher in 2014.
• In 2015, the Writers at Woody Point festival named its venue after Rogers, who has been a long-time host of the event.^[11]
• The Ontario Writers’ Conference 2015 Cornerstone Award was won by Rogers and her long-time producer, Jacqueline Kirk.
• In 2016, she received the inaugural Margaret Trudeau Award for Mental Health Advocacy.^[12]
• She was recognized as a Paul Harris Fellow by The Rotary Foundation of Rotary International in 2016.
• She has been named an honorary member of the League of Canadian Poets.
• She was, for many years, the Honorary PGI National Chair for the Peter Gzowski initiatives for literacy.
• In 2017, she received an Honorary Doctor of Literature from Carleton University.
• In 2019, she received one of the inaugural Library and Archives Canada Scholars Awards, recognizing the outstanding contribution of individuals who have dedicated their lives to the creation and promotion of the country’s literary and historical heritage.
• In 2019, she received an Honorary Doctor of Laws from Queen's University.
• Also in 2019, she received an Honorary Doctor of Letters from the University of Manitoba.

[Victoria Watcher]

Take the pool of qualified potential chancellors and seperate them by gender and ancestry.

Now give me the odds of there being two FN women in a row appointed at the same university.

If distributed evenly by the groups about the chances would be less than 1/100. Possible of course. But less than 1% of the time.

99 times out of 100 something else is at play.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 November 2021 - 01:55 PM.

[lanforod]

I think the implication by some posters is that Ms. Buller (and previously Ms. Rogers) were chosed because of their indigineous heritage. Since both are clearly qualified individuals  and in Ms. Rogers case did fine in the role, whether the search committee prioritized indiginous heritage or not is irrelevant. 

If you disagree with their qualifications, then argue on those merits, rather than 'no comment' or what have you. Yes, 'no comment' in and of itself is not a respectful remark in context here.

 

Even if they did decide to specifically chose someone who is First Nations or Metis? So what? It's not reverse-racism or anything like that: It helps pursue the goals of UVic, one of which is reconciliation.

 

If your disagreement is on those goals, thats a different topic.

[Victoria Watcher]

Yes I disagree with any hiring based on race.

Whether you are hiring for a government clerk, a fireman, or a university chancellor you should hire the best candidate available. Always. You owe it to the public paying the salary.

If you are in private business you are free to make unorthodox hiring choices I suppose. Although you likely rarely would.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 November 2021 - 02:04 PM.

[lanforod]

I could agree with that. Appointment of a chancellor is different than hiring. The chancellor is not employed by the university.

[m3m]

Yes I disagree with any hiring based on race.

Whether you are hiring for a government clerk, a fireman, or a university chancellor you should hire the best candidate available. Always. You owe it to the public paying the salary.

If you are in private business you are free to make unorthodox hiring choices I suppose. Although you likely rarely would.

 

What is the evidence that this hiring decision was based on race?  She's clearly highly qualified.  Why wouldn't the assumption be that she wasn't the most qualified candidate? 

[Victoria Watcher]

it’s too coincidental. as I said, it’s possible. But stats don’t support it. 99 times out of 100.

[Tom Braybrook]

Take the pool of qualified potential chancellors and seperate them by gender and ancestry.

Now give me the odds of there being two FN women in a row appointed at the same university.

If distributed evenly by the groups about the chances would be less than 1/100. Possible of course. But less than 1% of the time.

99 times out of 100 something else is at play.

 

i am not convinced by your questionabe use of numbers, especially when you apply the phrase "99 times out of 100" to a situation thats has only occurred 12 times.

 

in fact since 10 of 12 chancellors were white, and nine of those male - it should not be surprising that several chancellors in a row will be both female and non-white using your logic.

 

if i toss a coin ten times in a row and it is heads, followed by two tosses that are tails - can i make a valid prediction about the next toss - NO!

 

The next toss could be either heads or tails, the coin could be unbalanced , some circumstance might be manipulating the toss,  the next tosses could move the proportion of heads/tails towards the mean - but i do not have enough evidence. EVIDENCE!

 

of course over thousands of tosses the proportion of heads and tails with a fair coin will approximate a 50/50 split - but a case with the sample size of a mere 12 tosses is not large enough to reach a valid conclusion.

 

now if you want to believe it does, that's fine - but it says more about your beliefs than it does your understanding of probability and statistics

[Victoria Watcher]

The wokeness is a recent phenomenon. Might not have applied to 1 through 10. That was ancient history.

Run the numbers yourself. See how many FN females have a bachelor or better degree. Compared to all other ancestry.

Amazing that our last two appointments came from such a small pool.

You are tossing the coin incorrectly in your analogy there. Instead take 1000 balls. And weigh them based on gender and ancestry that has at least a bachelor degree. Put 990 balls - at least - in the hopper, that represent non-female, and non FN individuals.

Yes, there is a chance two of those 10 balls come out in your next two spins. But it’s nearly impossible.

FN are only 4% of the population. And only about 10% of them earn a bachelor degree or better (it’s over 25% for other Canadians, see link below). Then also take into consideration the fact that the two recent appointments were female. It’s getting to be a very small sliver of the overall bachelor degreed population.

https://www12.statca...11003_3-eng.cfm

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 November 2021 - 04:50 PM.

[A Girl is No one]

It happens….

« Staff at one of the world’s biggest investment companies have to get special approval to hire a white man, rather than a woman or an ethnic-minority candidate.« 

https://www.thetimes...rsity-hlgttnw5h

[Victoria Watcher]

So doing the math.

 

4% of the population is FN.  So ~2% is FN female.  10% of them have bachelor degrees.  So 0.2% of the population are females FN with bachelor degrees or more.

 

96% of the population is not FN.  So 47% are female non-FN.  25% have bachelor or more degrees.  So 11.75% of females are in the pool.

 

0.2% vs. 11.75%.

 

So the female pool of FN is almost 100x smaller than the non-FN female pool.

 

Yet somehow, they beat the 100-to1 odds and the last two UVic chancellors were FN females. 

 

That's a 10,000 to one odds. 

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 November 2021 - 07:06 PM.

[Tom Braybrook]

So doing the math.

 

4% of the population is FN.  So ~2% is FN female.  10% of them have bachelor degrees.  So 0.2% of the population are females FN with bachelor degrees or more.

 

96% of the population is not FN.  So 47% are female non-FN.  25% have bachelor or more degrees.  So 11.75% of females are in the pool.

 

0.2% vs. 11.75%.

 

So the female pool of FN is almost 100x smaller than the non-FN female pool.

 

Yet somehow, they beat the 100-to1 odds and the last two UVic chancellors were FN females. 

 

That's a 10,000 to one odds. 

i guess your math would work if every adult with a degree was in the pool - but of course all degrees are not equal - science, engineering, computer science, nursing, leisure studies, and so on might carry less weight in this case than say arts, poli-sci, business admin, etc.

 

additionally, working/professional background, life experience, community service and more also factor in to the decision (see Shelagh Rogers c.v. above)

 

so your total pool concept is flawed - as these varied criteria can make a significant impact on the decision

 

so basically your approach is just not applicable

 

nice try though ;-)

[Moderation]

Why would you make the assumption that all university graduates would have an equal chance of reflecting the values that UVIC has outlined that they are looking for in a candidate? 

 

As stated earlier by UVIC.........  an outstanding ambassador and champion for our institution and the values it espouses,

[LJ]

Why does it matter what her race/colour is? Why is it even mentioned? Who cares?

 

Is she qualified - that's all that matters.

 

Why do we have to add adjectives like first woman, first Asian, first openly gay person, first black person, first indigenous person, who cares?

 

Are they the best person for the job? I care about that.

[Victoria Watcher]

Woke culture espouses those immutable traits as “values”.

[Victoria Watcher]

i guess your math would work if every adult with a degree was in the pool - but of course all degrees are not equal - science, engineering, computer science, nursing, leisure studies, and so on might carry less weight in this case than say arts, poli-sci, business admin, etc.

 

additionally, working/professional background, life experience, community service and more also factor in to the decision (see Shelagh Rogers c.v. above)

 

so your total pool concept is flawed - as these varied criteria can make a significant impact on the decision

 

so basically your approach is just not applicable

 

nice try though ;-)

 

I'm just assuming that the type of degrees required are more or less evenly distributed across all ethnicity and gender groups.

 

Unless you have some type of proof that FN are not attracted to science, engineering, computer science, nursing, leisure studies etc., and then are overrepresented by type of degrees you think are appropriate for this position. 

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 09 November 2021 - 02:26 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

Woke culture espouses those immutable traits as “values”.

 

so when these traits are valued by the hiring committees it obviously stacks the odds against certain groups, as most of us cannot charge our skin colour and do not want to change our gender to score more hiring points.

[phx]

So doing the math.

 

 

 

Math is not needed here: everyone knows that race and gender were key factors.

That’s how it is these days.