324 replies to this topic

[mysage]

LJ - the Caucasians can call anything they want not sacred, that doesn't make it so.

Anyone have the name of the Victoria area archaeologists who completed the reports on these areas - who presumably said these caves were not sacred - I've not seen their names published.

Your arugment doesn't hold water. Anyone can call something sacred but just because it is sacred to them doesn't mean it is theirs alone and it should be treated as sacred by others.

As far as I am concerned the whole issue was one of politics with an eye for a payout.

I will quickly alter my opinion when irrefutable proof is provided as to how "sacred" the cave really was. All I ever saw was rehtoric and headlines and both dissapeared after a settlement was reached (cash?)

[Sparky]

^ I am being serious here, but how exactly does an archaeologist determine if something is sacred or not? I can see an extrapolation, should an artifact be discovered that is known to be used in sacred rituals, but couldn't the sacred part just be about the ritual, and not so much about the location?

Someone help clear a few things up for me. Exactly what took place in these caves that make them sacred?

If this is the wrong thread for these questions, I apologize. Somehow though, maybe Zoe is onto something.....maybe they are connected.

[Zoe]

Anyone have the name of the Victoria area archaeologists who completed the reports on these areas - who presumably said these caves were not sacred - I've not seen their names published.

The archeology reports were suppressed by the government.

Denise Blackwell, Langford's deputy mayor, held a position at the BC Archeology Branch at the time of the public hearings. She told the public Langford was not required to release the reports. That's part of the reason Forest Action Network filed the Supreme Court action against the city of Langford. The courts have ruled this kind of information MUST be public - it cannot be suppressed for political reasons. Regardless of the outcome of the case, it was a very bad move.

Eric McLay is the president of the Archeological Society of BC, and he is on record defining Langford Lake cave and SPAET Cave as native sites. Paul Griffiths is the president of the Vancouver Island Cave Exploration Group and the world's leading expert on karst caves, and he agrees. Justine Batten was chief of the government Archeology Branch at the time. You could also ask her - she's in the book.

[Sparky]

^ Thanks for that, but it did not help me with the word "sacred". I would expect that most of the populated areas in British Columbia were "native sites" at one time or other.

[Zoe]

The official classification is a "heritage site." The BC Archeology Branch, Eric McLay, and the oral history of the Songhees, Esquimalt, and Tsartlip bands called it a sacred site. It was kind of taboo to discuss these places with outsiders. Our group put together a pdf report that's available here. (Way too long to post here).

Bottom line: Langford has refused to release the Archeological Assessments for the mountain, and we have taken them to court for that reason. Heritage sites are protected under provincial law, and the public has an interest in preserving heritage sites of all kinds

Spaet Mountain1 – or Skirt Mountain, as it is officially known – straddles the municipalities of Langford and Highlands. Long before the city of Victoria was founded, Coast Salish people considered Spaet Mountain and its caves to be places of ceremony and tradition. The mountain had been a gathering place, a “shared place,” for indigenous people from across the south island for centuries. These coastal First Nations people prefer not to disclose specific cultural practices, but it is known that family groups gathered for weeks at a time to hunt, bathe, and engage in other spiritual activities.2 According to some First Nations people and their supporters, the mountain is dotted with burial cairns marking the graves of their ancestors.3 Local history also refers to "Guardian Rocks" and a "Transformer Rock," which play a role in cultural history and spiritual practice. 4

In 1899, the Victoria Daily Times reported a "legendary" underground lake in a large cave near Goldstream River and Langford Lake. The existence of the water-filled cavern was confirmed by the Victoria Colonist shortly thereafter.5 Several other caves were known in the area at the turn of the century.

"When a mountain has three names, depending on who you talk to, there is ample cause for trouble. It gets worse when that trouble involves a team of developers (who call it Bear), the government (who still officially call it Skirt), and First Nations (who have called it Spaet, which ironically means Bear)." – Jared Nyberg and Alix Temple-Hurley, "What is Going on With Spaet/Skirt/Bear Mountain?" April 5, 2007

"I am Lekwungen (Songhees) and Indigenous to this land. My grandmother shared our family history with me. My grandfather spoke of our connection to the land including sacred sites. I connect to this land in a way settlers never will. Yet, my ancestors and their remains are continually disrespected and displaced and our sacred sites and homelands are continually desecrated." – Cheryl Bryce, Pacific Free Press, January 17, 2008

"A mythology and spirituality has evolved through generations of use. Isolated caves like those in Bear Mountain, mountaintops like Lauwelnew Mountain in Saanich Nation (named Mount Newton by settlers), wolf caves in Lauwelnew and the special waters of Mystic Vale at the University of Victoria all have mythology and legend attached that goes beyond fable and represents real use and real belief systems at work". – Mavis Henry, Times Colonist, June 7, 2006

"The spiritual or cultural meaning of the cave site for aboriginal cultures has been substantiated by members of the Songhees and Tsartlip First Nations. They have also described, for example, the traditional practice of bathing and cleansing in the pool, which is one of the core features in SPAET Cave." – Paul Griffiths [leading cave expert], letter to Gordon Campbell, December 21, 2006

Notes:
1 Also spelled SPAET (with capital letters) – pronounced "Spa-ETH."
2 Ben Isitt, "Langford’s Bear Mountain Interchange: Urbanization on the Western Frontier and the Blurring of Public and Private Interests," December 2007.
3 Jared Nyberg and Alix Temple-Hurley, "What is Going on With Spaet/Skirt/Bear Mountain?" MostlyWater.ca, April 5, 2007.
4 Ben Isitt, "Support Aboriginal Efforts to Protect Spaet Mountain," News Daily Canada, December 1, 2006.
5 Maureen Duffus, Old Langford: An Illustrated History, (Town and Gown Press, 2003).

[Zoe]

I'm glad we're having this discussion, by the way.

[http]

I'm glad we're having this discussion, by the way.

Reasoned debate on the Internets! Call the cops!

[Sparky]

I'm glad we're having this discussion, by the way.

^^ That information was helpful for me.

I am VERY happy to see you use the justice system in order to resolve differences of opinions and actions. Not only is this a more productive approach than civil disobedience, the outcomes should be embraced by all concerned. Even though I may not agree with you with everything that you have supported, I am proud of you for that.

It's the right thing to do no matter what side of a topic your beliefs may lie.

[AnonAnnie2]

^ I am being serious here, but how exactly does an archaeologist determine if something is sacred or not? I can see an extrapolation, should an artifact be discovered that is known to be used in sacred rituals, but couldn't the sacred part just be about the ritual, and not so much about the location?

Someone help clear a few things up for me. Exactly what took place in these caves that make them sacred?

If this is the wrong thread for these questions, I apologize. Somehow though, maybe Zoe is onto something.....maybe they are connected.

Your questions Sparky are the reason I wanted the names of those who completed the study, the research and the archaeologist reports - I understand they have not been released to the public however the 'names' might give me some insight.

I am not an expert on sacred however let me try here.

If you had been told by your Great Grand (father or mother) when you were young that your family stopped at certain places along the coast, lived in those places for a short period of time and moved on - and told details of things that were available at each of those places for example - oysters at one place, clams at another, good fish at yet another, grass and bark at another, and medicines at still another and each of these life sustaining resources were available only at certain times of the year - and that your ancestors visited/lived at those places for 100 generations - would those places be significant to you? Would you see each of those places as tied together?

What if there were stories of your ancestors healing your people only in certain areas, or that specific mountains were powerful healers in themselves? You may think today that's a crock, science proofs that out to be silly or whatever BUT you know that in those days that was the belief and your ancestors by 100 generations visited those places for those reasons. How would you feel about those areas?

Now, would covering them with a garbage dump or filling them up with old tires and rotten tree root balls be respectful to 'whatever' was there? Can you go back to that name-place, now covered in garbage and get any sense of what would have transpired when your elders/ancestors were on the very same spot?
The children in many First Nations families and communities are raised to be respectful of their elders and these places.

I was in a meeting with gov. officials and First Nations regarding land title issues, and the gov. official said, we have no proof that your people used the area, and on the fellow went with his speech, reports, proof and whatnot. The First Nations sat and patiently listened. When they were done they had food, while eating a Chief directed a question to the fellow who said there was no proof - "do you have a house that you own in Vancouver"? his response was that he did. The Chief then asked all sorts of detail about his house; where his children born in the house, were his grandparents living with them and on and on. The Chief then asked about the attic - anyone live there? anything happen in the attic - the fellow of course replied no. The Chief then asked if he didn't use it, then how can it be his to claim?

You can answer the question the same way the fellow did, he bought the house therefor he Owns it and can do as he pleases.

Imagine a time when 'purchasing' land was not even a concept? I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one but wow, wouldn't that have been a great time, a significant time in theirs and our history.

[AnonAnnie2]

Your arugment doesn't hold water. Anyone can call something sacred but just because it is sacred to them doesn't mean it is theirs alone and it should be treated as sacred by others.

As far as I am concerned the whole issue was one of politics with an eye for a payout.

I will quickly alter my opinion when irrefutable proof is provided as to how "sacred" the cave really was. All I ever saw was rehtoric and headlines and both dissapeared after a settlement was reached (cash?)

Re-read my statement if you wish, I was not offering any sort of argument and asked for the names of the folks who completed the reports - nothing more or less.

As for the rest of your comments - I suggest you re-read and reflect for example you state "all I ever saw" therefore you are set into your thinking, and this is acceptable to you. Why is this ok for you but it is not ok for others, or....First Nations?

Is your demanding of proof, the defining of that final proof, your definition (of what proof is, what it looks like) Why?

Think about your comments.

[Zoe]

Indigenous oral histories are legal evidence of traditional use. That was the basis of the Delgamuukw decision. In this case, I don't think First Nations people got anything in the way of compensation for the lost caves except broken promises. Surprise.

There's another heritage site on Skirt Mountain, where a water bomber crashed in 1967. Plane crash sites are automatically designated heritage sites, like an old graveyard would be. (A colonial graveyard, that is - native graves don't get the same respect.)

[mysage]

Re-read my statement if you wish, I was not offering any sort of argument and asked for the names of the folks who completed the reports - nothing more or less.

As for the rest of your comments - I suggest you re-read and reflect for example you state "all I ever saw" therefore you are set into your thinking, and this is acceptable to you. Why is this ok for you but it is not ok for others, or....First Nations?

Is your demanding of proof, the defining of that final proof, your definition (of what proof is, what it looks like) Why?

Think about your comments.

The point is that this land was owned by Western Forest Products and then sold to the Bear Mountain group. At the time of the sale the hereditary First Nations band (Tsarslip I believe) signed away (for a major cash payout and title to other lands around the base of Mt.Finlayson, plus other benefits) any hereditary claims to the land and were happy to do so. Then once Bear Mountains seemed to be making money the Songhees band claimed that they had a sacred cave on the mountain.

This begs the question - where were they when the land was sold to Bear Mountain 5 years earlier? Why did the Tsarslip band deem it OK to sell their sacred site and not conuslt with other First Nations gropups if the sacred site was communal. And further to this why are both the Songhees band and other indegiounous peoples still not virgorously protesting the loss of their so called sacred site. Me thinks there is much much more to this. Cash is always the great equalizer and I would hazard a guess that the Songhees band obtained their real objective and sacred lands are only sacred until the right price is reached.

They would garner a lot more respect if they actually took a position from which they would never deviate. Instead they let groups such as Tracy Parks and her band of merry men fight the battle while they sit back with their rewards.

[LJ]

The point is that this land was owned by Western Forest Products and then sold to the Bear Mountain group. At the time of the sale the hereditary First Nations band (Tsarslip I believe) signed away (for a major cash payout and title to other lands around the base of Mt.Finlayson, plus other benefits) any hereditary claims to the land and were happy to do so. Then once Bear Mountains seemed to be making money the Songhees band claimed that they had a sacred cave on the mountain.

This begs the question - where were they when the land was sold to Bear Mountain 5 years earlier? Why did the Tsarslip band deem it OK to sell their sacred site and not conuslt with other First Nations gropups if the sacred site was communal. And further to this why are both the Songhees band and other indegiounous peoples still not virgorously protesting the loss of their so called sacred site. Me thinks there is much much more to this. Cash is always the great equalizer and I would hazard a guess that the Songhees band obtained their real objective and sacred lands are only sacred until the right price is reached.

They would garner a lot more respect if they actually took a position from which they would never deviate. Instead they let groups such as Tracy Parks and her band of merry men fight the battle while they sit back with their rewards.

Exactly!!

It was suggested that there may be a casino in the offing and all of a sudden the "sacred" caves were just holes in the ground.

Before Bear Mountain got underway there was no interest whatsoever in the mountain or the drill holes, as soon as they smelled a payday they became sacred.

I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't have become "sacred" were it not for the counselling and urging of certain non-natives pushing a particular political agenda and knowing they didn't have the gravitas to do it themselves.

[AnonAnnie2]

Ever thought about why it is so easy for you to make the statements you make?

[mysage]

Ever thought about why it is so easy for you to make the statements you make?

Meaning?

[Zoe]

Does anyone have evidence that First Nations people got paid for the destruction of the caves and grave sites? The only document we've found is the draft agreement in principle, and the province's chief negotiator has disowned that. He said it was only for discussion and bore no relationship to the final agreement, if there ever was one - he wouldn't confirm that either.

They could still sue. Not that it would do them any good.

[Sparky]

The point is that this land was owned by Western Forest Products and then sold to the Bear Mountain group. At the time of the sale the hereditary First Nations band (Tsarslip I believe) signed away (for a major cash payout and title to other lands around the base of Mt.Finlayson, plus other benefits) any hereditary claims to the land and were happy to do so. Then once Bear Mountains seemed to be making money the Songhees band claimed that they had a sacred cave on the mountain.

Mysage, in all fairness I think that this may be the statement that is in question. Can you provide reference material to the facts that you state?

[Sparky]

Does anyone have evidence that First Nations people got paid for the destruction of the caves and grave sites? The only document we've found is the draft agreement in principle, and the province's chief negotiator has disowned that. He said it was only for discussion and bore no relationship to the final agreement, if there ever was one - he wouldn't confirm that either.

They could still sue. Not that it would do them any good.

Zoe, care to publish the draft agreement here?

[Zoe]

Sure. The leaked agreement in principle is here (pdf).

This document appears to be signed by chiefs of the Songhees, Esquimalt, and Tsartlip First Nations. The Tsartlip membership, however, voted to reject the agreement because it doesn't promise to protect the cave. (That was a verbal promise made by Len Barrie in the longhouse.) I can post the text of their press statements if anyone wants.

The province denies that this document is an agreement in principle and won't confirm there was ever a final agreement.

[Sparky]

^ Whoa....some serious reading to be done here Zoe.....thanks for that.

I wouldn't mind reading the press statements....this is giving me, and probably some others..... an education.