107 replies to this topic

[Hotel Mike]

This is some pretty brilliant marketing on the part of this magazine. They know that they can generate tons of coverage from each city where they list their top public places. Does anybody really care what they think? No mention of Fisherman's Wharf? Bastion Square?

[jklymak]

Great that Beacon Hill Park made the top 10 list though. I can't think of a more beautiful urban park anywhere, except maybe Stanley Park.

[J Douglas]

Hello to everyone. This is my first post, but I have been an observer of the site, and a much longer observer of Victoria.

Public space is, I believe, a critical issue in the liveability of cities. This is an area where planning can really fall flat- look at places like LA, or Calgary for example.

People can become creatures of habit I think, and up until recently the surburban model of development has predominated in many places. Surburbia, the car culture, and even more dramatically the "edge city" style of living work against public space, as we know.

Many, I think, fell somewhat adrift in public space, because it is not somethng familiar. Some people have told me that they "never go downtown", meaning, in the case of those living in more recently built suburbs, their life is encapsulated to a large degree- lived overwhelmingly in private space. The surburban car culture has become ingrained; taken for granted.

A move away from the dominance of cars must be a part of returning to public space, in my estimation.

Some other ideas on public space:

http://www.pps.org/articles/11steps/

[Nparker]

Great post J. Douglas. Welcome aboard.

[Schnook]

Welcome Douglas. I too am a relative newcomer.

Public space is, I believe, a critical issue in the liveability of cities....Some people have told me that they "never go downtown", meaning, in the case of those living in more recently built suburbs, their life is encapsulated to a large degree- lived overwhelmingly in private space. The surburban car culture has become ingrained; taken for granted. A move away from the dominance of cars must be a part of returning to public space, in my estimation.

I know this way of thinking is getting pushed hard, but unlike many on this board, it just doesn't resonate with me. I'm one of those who dread going downtown. I don't like "public spaces." At the end of the day, I have a private forest sanctuary, wouldn't give it up for anything, and feel a comfortable disconnect with those who apparently don't relate. I suppose it's a matter of personality type, goals, means, and other factors, and that's fine. Celebrate your public space, and leave me out of it.

"Dominance" of cars is naturally a matter of economics. The LRT alternative is another agenda where I prefer to opt out. I have an excellent car in a region blessed with some of the best roads on the planet (Mt. Newton Interchange notwithstanding), and resent the misplaced notion that someone else in a free country should have the right to tell me when and how (or not) to use it. If I change, it will be a matter of personal economics, not diktat.

End of responsive exposition.

[Nparker]

I [live] in a region blessed with some of the best roads on the planet...

Highly taxpayer-subsidized roads.

[J Douglas]

Welcome Douglas. I too am a relative newcomer.



I know this way of thinking is getting pushed hard, but unlike many on this board, it just doesn't resonate with me. I'm one of those who dread going downtown. I don't like "public spaces." At the end of the day, I have a private forest sanctuary, wouldn't give it up for anything, and feel a comfortable disconnect with those who apparently don't relate. I suppose it's a matter of personality type, goals, means, and other factors, and that's fine. Celebrate your public space, and leave me out of it.

"Dominance" of cars is naturally a matter of economics. The LRT alternative is another agenda where I prefer to opt out. I have an excellent car in a region blessed with some of the best roads on the planet (Mt. Newton Interchange notwithstanding), and resent the misplaced notion that someone else in a free country should have the right to tell me when and how (or not) to use it. If I change, it will be a matter of personal economics, not diktat.

End of responsive exposition.

Hello Schnook. Like you I also would prefer a forest setting to downtown. Given the demands of employment, commerce, and other interactions though, the majority of us have little choice than to spend at least part of our time in some sort of urban setting. These will likely never be perfect, or provide the ambiance of a forest, but certainly we can mold them into something that is at least comfortable, and not completely dreaded.

Your second paragraph goes right to the heart of the matter. There are two major themes here:

1) To what extent is our environment dictated by economics, and to what extent is it in the political arena?

2) Where to settle on the trade off between individual freedoms, and community values?

Cars do provide an economical way to get around, but only because it has been made so by political decisions in the past. Cars were considered the wave of the future in the '40s and '50s, and maybe they were- for a while. But economics can slid almost unnoticed into politics. Overall, we would probably have saved more energy, materials, and real estate if for example, society had gone in for trains in a big way, and hence that is how the landscape was shaped. I'm not holding this out as ideal, but just saying the car seized the popular imagination, which had its effect on political decision making, which then came to have an economic consequence. Changes in planning today would lead to another economic paradigm in the future.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with driving around in a car. But the problem comes in when what is fine for one is problematic for many. There is nothing wrong with wanting to burn coal to heat your home and cook food. But if everyone was doing it, then the environment of Victoria would change for the worse. Everyone wanting to drive means that the landscape must change. The layout of old town Victoria, for example, doesn't come close to providing a model for a city in which 100s of thousands, or millions, want to drive to their destination. Trying to force that leads to an evironment that you understandibly "dread". Accomodating the car model completely means an urban landscape like LA, or Pheonix- endless sprawl, and still traffic jams at peak periods. Even those that think this an OK form of development admit there are serious trade offs here, including much higher levels of energy use, and air pollution. And according to surveys in those cities, many do not think the urban development they see is OK- surprising numbers state that they would live somewhere else, if possible.

[Schnook]

Appreciate the wise and fair handed post, and I think you're bang on with practically everything. The aspect that grates is the lobby that aspires to FORCE change based on the presumption that individuals know better than markets. Historically, the outcome of such thinking is ugly.

I subscribe to some private financial newsletters that anticipate a spike in prices for everything that supports the petroleum-based lifestyle. It's already started, though like the boiling frog, we are slow to see it. When oil moves past $150/bbl, there will be no need to force a legislative mandate for transportation alternatives. The public will scream for it, and those who still drive around will find traffic congestion eased considerably.

The question is: will affected municipalities have the capital to pursue AND FINISH such projects, or will they do irreparable harm to the local economy with unsupportable debt?

Addendum: I know this belongs under the LRT thread, where I've already expressed misgivings (backward-looking pop forecasts in error, traffic into Victoria dropping as jobs disappear, etc.).

[Sparky]

^ The boiling frog was on the tube tonight. Good flick.

You two exchange thoughts and ideas with grace. Good reading.

[phx]

Highly taxpayer-subsidized roads.

Taxpayers don't subsidize roads. They invest in them, and generally get a favourable return.

[jklymak]

Appreciate the wise and fair handed post, and I think you're bang on with practically everything. The aspect that grates is the lobby that aspires to FORCE change based on the presumption that individuals know better than markets. Historically, the outcome of such thinking is ugly.

Unfortunately, markets can't regulate everything. Historically, the outcome of thinking they can, is quite ugly as well. For instance, if land use were completely unplanned and left to the vagaries of the market, I would be very surprised if your "forest sanctuary" would still be available to you, at least within a reasonable distance of Victoria for a reasonable cost. There is no market cost for most forms of environmental degradation, not limited to the damage caused by automobiles.

So sure, we will run out of oil one day and markets will make it unprofitable to use. Does that mean we should power all our cars with coal gas instead? Because thats what the markets would dictate is the next cheapest form of energy.

[Schnook]

Unfortunately, markets can't regulate everything. Historically, the outcome of thinking they can, is quite ugly as well. For instance, if land use were completely unplanned and left to the vagaries of the market, I would be very surprised if your "forest sanctuary" would still be available to you, at least within a reasonable distance of Victoria for a reasonable cost. There is no market cost for most forms of environmental degradation, not limited to the damage caused by automobiles.

Fair enough. Someone with vision saw potential for a patch of land, bought it and put a house on it a long time ago. (That was before the twin evils of almighty-buck-development and paternalistic over-regulation mushroomed, but I digress.)

We really deviate from the topic re: changes looming in the face of peak EROEI / peak cheap oil. Diesel will supposedly return to commercial fleets. I suspect the main near-term change for pasenger vehicles will be smaller dimensions and greater diversity, much like we see in developing countries. SUVs will go the way of RVs. As for coal liquefaction, there are conflicting reports as to the "cleanliness" of new plants, but I'm inclined to think we will follow developing countries in that regard as well, albeit later to the game. We have a very tough period to get through first, and priorities will be changed on the other side.

It is exciting, isn't it!

[Sparky]

J Douglas

The link that you provided regarding public spaces was profound. All I needed was a dash of insomnia which gave me the time to read it.

Because of what you wrote, I would like to reflect on a recent project that a bedroom community, "Brentwood", embarked on that perhaps can help illuminate some of the principles in that article along with some of your thoughts.

Brentwood is a lot like the Cook street village in as much as it is a village centre that is not much more than a few blocks long, basically located on one thoroughfare.

This community was faced with a problem where the existing mature street scape trees that were planted some decades ago were decimating the sidewalks and road, because of root damage, to the point where something had to be done to rectify the situation. Much to the chagrin of some of the locals, (because they did not want to loose the mature trees) the planners (mostly made up of local community talent) changed the face of Brentwood by removing the trees, widening and rerouting the sidewalks, replanting with appropriate trees and plants, installing meridians and a traffic circle and installing benches and pedestrian crossing lights.

Now, a few years later, this village has sprung alive. The business community followed the dream. There is now a revamped grocery store, a new bank building, new condominiums are being built where once a post office stood, along with a number of other projects budding from properties that were once in decline.

I believe this all started with a bold risk of changing the long standing vision of this community because of some root bound trees coupled with a strong community driven desire to "build a space"

The material in the link that you provided quoted one of Yogi Berra’s great sayings “If they say it can’t be done, it doesn’t always work out that way,”

Thank you for sharing.

[Barra]

Some great use of public space downtown with the Buskers' Festival. First I headed to Centennial Square, thinking it might be there, but found most of it walled off with fences and green tarps, no signage, one small entrance where they were asking $20 for an Ace Carporea show. Not good use of public space.

On Langley St, however, I found the street closed off to create performance space. Lots of happy people watching jugglers in the rain.

and a note for those who believe that market forces create good. The market had nothing to do with creating the Buskers' Festival. It was one guy - John Vickers - who pursued the idea and got City Hall, volunteers, and buskers on board

[LJ]

Highly taxpayer-subsidized roads.

You know, of course, it is funded by gas taxes not general taxpayers, but that doesnt have nearly the same impact to it does it?

[Holden West]

^Say what?

[LJ]

^Say what?

Oh God, we don't have to go through this again do we?

Bernarrrrrrrrd.

[Holden West]

A co-worker of mine (a respectable-looking young woman) was reading in the courtyard of the downtown public library at 10:30 am one Sunday when the library was closed. A security guard emerged from the adjacent government office and told her to move along. I realize this is private property but I found this outrageous. I can understand evicting a tribe of homeless campers but this was far from the case.

[aastra]

I have concerns about this sort of thing re: the proposed open corner at Douglas and Pandora. Methinks even looking at that plaza the wrong way after 6pm will probably get the security guards on your case.

[Holden West]

This erosion of quasi-public space concerns me. I recall you could cut through the Bay Centre after hours using the Broad St. entrances but I don't think you can still do that. Does anyone know?