480 replies to this topic

[Layne French]

My only complaint is that I still think some condos should be built that are larger to make them more appealing to families. $/sqft could be reduced by making them have fewer windows/sqft. i.e. the window space of an 800 sqft place in 1400 sqft.

Savings on costs such as windows would be marginal.. Maybe Concorde could chip in but i highly doubt you would save enough to reduce the dollar/sq ft. to a point it would be attractive to those with families. I was discussing a similar issue with a senior development manager for Grosvenor a couple weeks back, in his case he was working with a DC district(Direct Control District- a site that does not conform with the ARP-OCP) which had a cap on how many units he was allowed in the building.

[jklymak]

^ Perhaps so. However, it still seems that a 1500 sqft condo should come in significantly cheaper than a house in Fairfield with a full sized lot, yet they don't.

[Mike K.]

A brand new condo in downtown Victoria cannot be compared to a half-century old home in a residential neighbourhood. They are two very different types of homes and are priced accordingly.

[jklymak]

^ Comparable or not, that doesn't really explain why there aren't many family sized condos being built.

[gumgum]

^It's a problem everywhere. I would assume developers get more bang for buck with medium to small condos.

[mysage]

^ Comparable or not, that doesn't really explain why there aren't many family sized condos being built.

I spent a lot of time this year looking for a condo for my daughter (found one) anf I can tell you there are no family condos out there and from what I saw probably never were and never will be for two very simple reasons.

The first reason is there is virtually no demand. In our part of the world families want space for the kids to play and condominium living with neighbours right down the hall does not offer that. The vast majority of young families will buy the cheapest house possible before they will buy a superior quality condominium. Large condominiums lanquish in the market place unless they are dramatically under priced and even then they tend to sell to people without children. Secondly it is price. Why on earth would any businessman/developer build a 1500 sq ft unit and try to sell it for new market pricing (say $400 sq ft) and thus have a $600,000 (plus taxes) unit for sale when he can more easily sell a unit at 750 sq ft to a much broader demogrpahic for $300,000. Time is money and the developer cannot build for a very narrow demogrpahic and have his product sit forever (or until he slashes prices).

From my experiences the developer does not dictate the marektplace so much as he responds to it. If the public was clamoring for large family units the developers would be building them. They are not saleable because of a combination of low demand, high risk to the developer, and free market pricing pushing the price up.

We get what we demand (and are willing to pay for).

[aastra]

There are also a lot of family-size units in the older condo buildings around town.

[sebberry]

But a lot of the older condo buildings have age and occupant restrictions in their bylaws.

For example, my building doesn't permit anyone under 16 to live in the building, although this was waived for one couple already living here when they had a baby.

Also, you can't have more than three people living in a suite here, although that could get tricky with only two bedrooms.

Then once you find a condo you can have a family in, you have to look at what you can and cannot do in the place. Many of the families that I know enjoy having a BBQ and a dog. Many child-ready buildings outlaw one or both of those.

Condos aren't suited the the typical "family lifestyle", IMO. That's why they're small and expensive. They're merely warehouses for people.


What we need to do is bring back communism. Retired couples hobbling around their 5bed/4 bath home on walkers and canes need to be relocated to condos where the building size and regulations are more in line with their lifestyle.

Families with 2.2 children, a golden retriever named Spot and a cat named Kitty could then live in the houses now vacated by octogenarians. And don't give me any of this "but we've lived here for 50 years and raised our children and our children's children" crap. You don't need the house anymore, there's an 800sq-ft condo with your name on it.

[mysage]

There are also a lot of family-size units in the older condo buildings around town.

Most of those were built in the 70's in James Bay and Fairfield and that size is no longer built becuase of the points that I raised.

If there was a demand for them one would think that families would be lined up for them. They are not becuase the lifestyle is not suitable for families and people are asking market prices.. Can you imagine a family of 4 with two cars, a dog , bikes, skateboards, etc etc living side by side with the rather elderly inhabitants of most of those older buildings even if they could afford market pricing.. Nope - won't happen.

[jklymak]

I know lots of young families who would be happy to live downtown, and not deal with a yard. I am certainly among them, and in fact we do live in a condo downtown and it is great. However, we'd want another bedroom if we had a second child, and that product is very hard to find. I don't believe that everyone still feels that they need a two car garage and big personal yard for their kids.

I actually think the real problem is indeed "market pricing". However, if we could find a 1500 sqft 3 bdrm at $400/sqft in the inner core, we'd probably buy it. I just don't see any product like that available. All the three bedrooms I see are $800k+.

[sebberry]

I know lots of young families who would be happy to live downtown, and not deal with a yard.

I think taking care of a simple yard would be a fine trade-off for being able to do whatever you please in your own home

[mysage]

I think taking care of a simple yard would be a fine trade-off for being able to do whatever you please in your own home

We sold our downtown condo and fled to a single family home a soon as we had kids.

We had lived in condos/apartments in major cities (several of them with concierge/doormen) all over the world and had not found one of them suitable to raise children in unless you wanted to escort them outside and watch over them constantly. In our mind downtown living is not a suitable place in which to raise your children. We certainly miss some downtown conveniences but what our children gained far outweighed what we lost.

[AllseeingEye]

Interesting discussion; my Fairfield condo is 1400 s/f with a 180 s/f enclosed desk: 2 bdrm, 2 bathroom, upstairs loft, top floor, corner suite with a south-looking view of Beacon Hill and the Olympics. The building was constructed in 1982.

The main drawback is the underground parking - the garage has a clearance of only 5'10" which means SUV and truck owners are forced to park on the street. A very definite drag. OTOH I look at the newer units and wonder how the heck people can handle living in 600 s/f of space. To each their own of course; every financial situation is different and as someone said in this thread to purchase a larger unit these days typically costs north of $600K.

JKlymak FYI if you're interested I'll likely be putting it on the market in the next 45-60 days; you can easily convert the loft to a 3rd bedroom.....$400K..priced to sell, just for you..

[sebberry]

the garage has a clearance of only 5'10" which means SUV and truck owners are forced to park on the street.

I'd be banging my head every time I walked to my car

I thought in this new Greenpeace world people were supposed to cart their kids around in a little trailer behind their bicycle anyway.

[Kapten Kapsell]

I really think a condo is a great place to raise a family. Part of my childhood was spent in condo-like housing... and most children growing up in Paris, Manhattan, or similarly dense large urban areas also reside in condos (or apartments).

Jklymack, if you're interested in finding a larger condo suite in a newer downtown building, you might be interested in knowin that about 1/3 of the suites at the Belvedere (on Humboldt St) are 1270 sq. feet. The Aria, just across the street, features many units in the 1300-1600 square foot range. And, while not *technically* downtown, the Chelsea (999 Burdett near Christ Church Cathedral) and the Cherry Bank (Rupert Terrace near the Fairfield/Blanchard corner) both encompass a number of larger condo units exceeding 1300 square feet.

I imagine that the Mondrian will be a successful project (despite its smaller units) and perhaps other developers will consider bringing larger units to the Harris Green area in the near future, even if some of these are in the form of townhouses.

[sebberry]

I really think a condo is a great place to raise a family.

I did too and I spoke out against our kid ban at one of our AGMs.

Now I get to wake up at 7am on Sunday morning to Winnie the Pooh coming from one of my neighbours.

[concorde]

Savings on costs such as windows would be marginal.. Maybe Concorde could chip in but i highly doubt you would save enough to reduce the dollar/sq ft. to a point it would be attractive to those with families.

Its extremely marginal that I've never heard anyone even talk about window ratios before

[jklymak]

Really? Surely it is cheaper to use other walls than windows. It seems cheaper condos have small windows. And maybe more importantly a larger floor plate with more interior to outside walls seems likely to be cheaper than floor plate design with more exterior. ie one 8000 sqft plate would seem to be cheaper than two 4000 sqft plates. However, i am not a builder, so I'm just expressing my surprise.

[Baro]

The savings are there, it's just not that big.

I knew of a condo that when it was being designed the architect wanted full height windows and the developer wanted to save money by having smaller traditional windows. The architect argued that the extra time spent framing the solid wall around each window rather than just installing a huge pre-made glazed wall would would come out about equal.

In the end the developer and builders admitted the architect was right based on the hourly wage of the framers, came out about exactly the same.

We're getting quite off-topic though, isn't there a thread, maybe the "managing urban density" that would be better suited for talking about housing families and general unit sizes downtown?

[G-Man]

I was going by this site today and was imagining the positive impact this would have on that corner. I really hope this comes to light.

As for downtown family living I really don't get why it is cheaper for me to by a 2900 sqft 3bd 2ba house near downtown than it would be for me to get say an 1800 sqft condo. If the product existed I would have looked at it when we had kids and moved. It really does not compute. In Vancouver, a lot of the condo buildings have ground floor townhouses which does provide more space. Personally I want my kids to grow up as close to the city as I can make it for them. Right now it is a 20 minute walk downtown...