77 replies to this topic

[jklymak]

Victoria is a beautiful city in trouble on various levels. What bugs me is the outlook that density is desirable across the board. There seem to be qualitative differences between good and bad density. We (the royal "we") need to identify the mistakes made and lessons learned by other cities and leverage them if our "densification" is to be stable and complementary. For the time being, unless/ until these distinctions are established, given the choice between raising children in the suburbs and doing so in a highrise apartment, I'll take the 'burbs.
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These are all great points, but I really think they are more germane to how to plan suBsidized housing. No one is suggesting building 60s era projects in Victoria. They are saying more condos should go in, like downtown Vancouver. Its not like Dt is full of subsidized housing.

[G-Man]

This is true. And Schnook I have to say I really appreciate the effort you put into your post.

It is unlikely that there will any of the 1960 era projects ever built again. Also currently most of the housing projects are in either Burnside or North Park.

[gumgum]

Also more people living downtown means more services required downtown. Less empty storefronts.

I really don't think Victoria's at a crisis level. Things are better now than they were when I moved here 7 years ago. I can argue that that is directly attributable to newer resedential on Humbolt, Blanshard and Yates.

[Mike K.]

In a conversation I recently had with Paul Brown, a political watchdog and perhaps mayoral candidate come November, we discussed the demographics of downtown. Mr. Brown pointed out that downtown is too expensive for the average person to buy into, particularly for a larger unit, and therefore we have predominantly upper middle class individuals buying into housing and a growing homeless and hard-to-house population. In other words, two groups at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Given the overly high cost for a home there are many people who would like to live downtown but cannot afford to buy a condo comparable to those offered in the suburbs. And it won't be until city hall absolves archaic bylaws and codes (such as severe density limitations and requirements for costly underground parking) that housing prices in the downtown core will become more attainable to the average person.

After all, the more people we have living downtown and contributing to that economy the better the downtown will become. But at the rate social problems expand while housing remains inaccessible due a variety of political agendas we'll make little headway in changing the core.

I should also add that many businesses in downtown are not necessarily closing due to lack of customers, but in more cases than we think because of prohibitively expensive operating costs. Like I mentioned in another thread, the old Zambri's restaurant space beside London Drugs is for lease at $8,000 per month and it's a fairly small space for a restaurant operation.

[aastra]

Bard-to-house? That sounds very poetic. Is Anne Hathaway's Cottage available?

[aastra]

Hmmm, I wonder if there is truly a correlation between crime and density? You would think people would have done statistical studies on that.

There was the "Smaller Towns have Higher Crime Rates" story from a few years back:
http://www.canada.co...92-863d23da94bf

http://www.ctv.ca/CT...e_rural_070628/

This slightly more recent article contains the claim that crime is the "new reality" in small-town Ontario:
http://www.thestar.com/article/482162

While some "drastic things" have happened in the county, Shewfelt said people in Goderich still feel safe. Local police are still more likely to get calls about minor break-ins and domestic arguments than weapons busts and murders, he said.

I have to say, any area that has more murders and weapons busts than break-ins and domestic arguments is an area that I'd prefer to avoid.

Wouldn't such an area normally be called a war zone? Or a battlefield?

[Greg]

However there seems to be this culture in the suburbs that are proud to have a hate on for downtown. So much so, that they will rationalize it no matter how much the situation improves.

Actually this is due to the utter lack of culture in the suburbs. Suburbanites have a self-need to justify their decision to live out with the stepford-wives, surrounded only by people of the same ethnic background and the same social class. And far from downtown where the opera, the ballet, the theatre and the symphony take place on a nightly basis.

Or maybe that's just me justifying my need to live downtown.

[Mike K.]

Bard-to-house? That sounds very poetic. Is Anne Hathaway's Cottage available?

You see, that's what happens when you post using your iPhone.

[aastra]

...they will rationalize it no matter how much the situation improves.

It seems like it was only yesterday that everyone was worried about downtown turning into an exclusive condo-land for the rich. Now everyone is worried about downtown turning into a hellhole of crime and homelessness.

The "feast or famine" mindset has great appeal for many Victorians. Sort of like how the construction scene was a catastrophe when it was busy, and now the construction scene is a catastrophe because it isn't busy.

It's all the more interesting when you consider just how moderate Victoria is in almost every aspect. Everything gets painted in extremes, but hardly anything actually is extreme.

[mysage]

Actually this is due to the utter lack of culture in the suburbs. Suburbanites have a self-need to justify their decision to live out with the stepford-wives, surrounded only by people of the same ethnic background and the same social class. And far from downtown where the opera, the ballet, the theatre and the symphony take place on a nightly basis.

Or maybe that's just me justifying my need to live downtown.

Just you (lol)

I live in the suburbs because, the schools are better for my kids, the grocery shopping is more accessible, there are lots of sports fields readily avialable, I haven't ever had anyone unrinate on by doors step and there is no latenight carousing by drunks leaving the bars.

On my street there are two Oriental families, and a number of Indo Canadian families, several expensive homes and a number of moderate homes . I think that this mix is quite common in most suburban neighbourhoods in Greater Victoria. I am constantly amazed by those that think living downtown is the answer for everyone. (PS living in the suburbs isn't the ideal situation for everyone either but I would never be critical of those choosing to live there) Each to there own.

[jklymak]

^ I don't think anyone should be critical of people wanting to live in the suburbs. I'm just critical of urban and transportation planning that seeks to expand the suburbs.

We live downtown and certainly enjoy all the advantages you enumerate above, with the added bonus that we don't have to drive to any of them. The disadvantages occur occasionally, but people in the suburbs can have misbehaving neighbours too.

[LJ]

Actually this is due to the utter lack of culture in the suburbs. Suburbanites have a self-need to justify their decision to live out with the stepford-wives, surrounded only by people of the same ethnic background and the same social class. And far from downtown where the opera, the ballet, the theatre and the symphony take place on a nightly basis.

Or maybe that's just me justifying my need to live downtown.

I think suburbanites are perfectly capable of going downtown to take in all the culture they want as the need arises. The same way folks downtown make their way out to the suburbs if they want to go to Costco, hiking, camping, bowling, fairs, etc. It all depends on what is more important to you or what you do more often.

If I was going to the opera and ballet every week I would live downtown, I don't.

[Schnook]

There was the "Smaller Towns have Higher Crime Rates" story from a few years back...

Interesting reading. Thanks Aastra.

I have personal reasons for not taking the StatsCan data as gospel, inconsistencies notwithstanding. I know from experience that the Vancouver PD doesn't respond to minor stuff. Retailers fix smashed windows, replace broken locks, list stolen stock as shrinkage, file a claim and carry on with the added cost of doing business. (Druggies fence stolen goods to fund their next 'fix.' Time spent on the phone reporting each incident would be overwhelming. It's economics.) Officers often ignore marijuana possession. It's not unusual to see punks smoke joints in front of officers without consequence. The point is: police in smaller communities can respond more readily and report more diligently.

Similarly, statistics can be finessed to support a positive message. For example, departments under pressure to perform might report a break-in without sign of forced entry as something less ominous, like theft <$200.

I question the generality about high homicide in "rural areas" across the prairies. How many rural homicides were committed by people from urban areas? How much is tied to the oil patch? Ft. McMurray is a well known "rural" focus for social imbalances that might otherwise be equated with the inner-city.

None of this discounts or invalidates StatsCan's general theme. Crime associated with low-income and "vulnerable" groups follows its market. "Gentrification" (new upscale development) pushes it into surrounding areas where it forms new nodes. Legislation to enforce mixed-income development affects normal dynamics of social organization. By analogy, stomp a puddle and it splashes around, trickling into new pools. You understand why rural neighbors are disturbed by the proposed experiment at Woodwynn Farm.

MySage is right. To each his/her own. "Density" appeals to some but not to others. Let the gentry keep their country estates.

Have the regulars to this board heard of Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design (CPTED)? I scan the headings and think immediately of Wal-Mart.

[Barra]

In a conversation I recently had with Paul Brown, a political watchdog and perhaps mayoral candidate come November, we discussed the demographics of downtown. Mr. Brown pointed out that downtown is too expensive for the average person to buy into, particularly for a larger unit, and therefore we have predominantly upper middle class individuals buying into housing and a growing homeless and hard-to-house population. In other words, two groups at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Mr. Brown gives himself away as not having any low or middle income friends who live downtown. I spent the evening visiting a young relative who has a great bachelor apartment in Chinatown for around $700. His friends also live in the Chinatown area and there has been a history of artists and others living in that area for a reasonable price. A great lifestyle for a young person, and an easy walk or bus ride to work (as none of their places have parking) We have a moderator of this site who lives in a renovated condo bldg which is accessible to the "average" person.

Why does Brown only refer to condo owners when he talks about people who live downtown?

[jklymak]

^ No doubt. And its not like east of Cook and north of Pandora are miles away from downtown, and they are definitely not for the rich.

People need to understand this - any densification makes housing more affordable, even if it is dense "luxury" condos. The upper middle class people who move into those don't buy other homes, freeing up more housing stock. 50 years from now that "luxury" condo will be rental housing.

[ZGsta]

People who live in the 'burbs are BLESSED!

Whoa, the TC clearly needs some new editors, they constantly substituted "North Saanich" for "Downtown" in this article.
http://www.timescolo...9265/story.html

Police investigating trap, attack in North Saanich
BY KATIE DEROSA, TIMESCOLONIST.COM OCTOBER 16, 2011

More details are coming to light about a trap set up on a dark dead-end street in North Saanich that resulted in a woman being attacked from behind Friday night.

In an email to the Times Colonist, the woman's husband, Alex Smale, said his wife, Rosaline, was on her way home from the convenience store where she works on McTavish Road around 11 p.m. when she noticed a tree blocking Graham Avenue, a dead-end L-shaped street that ends at Basswood Road, where she lives.

Also, to get the requisite "trap" reference out of the way...

[sebberry]

You got it wrong:

[ZGsta]

Well played sir.