1754 replies to this topic

[Bingo]

Elevations
Nantes 515 metres.
Lac-Megantic 407 metres or a 98 metre fall in 12 km.

[LJ]

Elevations
Nantes 515 metres.
Lac-Megantic 407 metres or a 98 metre fall in 12 km.

Either my math is way off or that certainly isn't the 6% grade they were mentioning.

IIRC back in the day most mainlines never exceeded 3% grade.

[VicHockeyFan]

How about this new news:

http://www.presshera...2013-07-09.html

Propane suspected in Quebec explosions
Evidence mounts that the runaway train slammed into other railroad cars carrying liquid propane.

By Tom Bell tbell@mainetoday.com
Staff Writer

When a runaway train derailed in Lac-Megantic, Quebec, early Saturday, a series of explosions flattened the town centre.

What caused the blasts that left 13 people dead and dozens missing?

Government investigators and railroad officials have yet to say anything about the matter, leaving many to assume that the cause was the 73-car train's cargo of crude oil.

But Marie-Eve Boucher, who lives near the train yard that was at the center of the disaster, told the Toronto Star that she looked out her window after the ground began to shake and saw flames licking a tank car filled with propane.

She and her husband ran to a nearby shopping mall, about a mile from the downtown, and then heard an "enormous explosion."

Her account confirms what Kevin Burkholder sees when he studies photographs taken from the air Saturday while fire crews doused the smoldering wreckage.

The mainline track on which the train was traveling remained relatively intact, he said, but a side track, known as a "storage track," was torn apart by an explosion at the point where the mainline curves, said Burkholder, editor of Vermont-based Eastern Railroad News, an online magazine that covers the industry for rail enthusiasts.

[Bingo]

Quebec Train Disaster Heats Up Rail-Pipeline Debate

“Pipeline companies will use this to point out the advantages and safety records of pipelines,” said Bob Schulz, a professor at the University of Calgary’s Haskayne School of Business, in an interview with a Bloomberg reporter. “It gives those companies an additional point to support their argument.”
http://www.joc.com/r...nal of Commerce)

I suppose the pipeline could appear to be safer, but what would be the outcome if the terrorism factor becomes part of the argument, if that hasn't happened already?

[VicHockeyFan]

This is the way things are done in the US, they make good sense, and I can't see how we'd do it differently:

Train Operations
102.1
Securing Equipment Against Undesired Movement
Crew members are responsible for securing standing equipment with hand brakes to prevent undesired
movement. The air brake system must not be depended upon to prevent an undesired movement.
Use the following steps to determine the hand brakes to be applied when setting out cars on a grade:
·
With slack bunched, apply the hand brakes on the low end of the cut of cars.
·
With slack stretched, apply the hand brakes on the high end of the cut of cars.
To determining the number of hand brakes to be applied depends on:
·
Grade and adhesion.
·
Number of loaded and empty cars.
·
Weather conditions (wind and temperature).
Note: Reference Rule 104.14 for hand brake guidelines.
To verify the hand brake(s) applied will prevent movement, release all air brakes. Note: All retainer valves
must be in EXHAUST position
102.1.1 Securing an Unattended Train or Portion of Train with Locomotive Attached
To secure a train or a portion of a train with the lead locomotive consist attached, perform the steps
below:
1. Secure equipment against undesired movement. When securing an unattended train, in addition
to hand brakes required to secure train, all locomotive hand brakes on the lead consist must be
applied. When determining the minimum number of hand brakes required to secure a train, the lo
-
comotive hand brakes should be counted toward the total hand brakes required. Use the table pro
-
vided in Rule 104.14 if the minimum number required is not known.
Exception: Distributed power remote consists coupled to unattended trains do not require hand brakes
to be applied or other securement steps outlined in Rule 102.3 when the train is otherwise properly
secured.
2. Release all air brakes to ensure hand brakes will prevent movement.
3. Secure the locomotive consist as outlined in Rule 102.3, items 1 - 10

So essentially, you have to put on as many hand barkes as necessary, depending on many factors, then you must perform a test, where all air brakes are released, to make sure the hand brakes are working well enough.

*** pdf: http://www.blet213.o...ed_12-15-08.pdf

[VicHockeyFan]

New video:

mRb3JHsiqfA#at=514

[VicHockeyFan]

Transport Canada, which regulates the country's railways, said on Tuesday that there are no rules for the number of handbrakes needed to be set on a train to ensure it is safely parked, but engineers must perform a test.

Speaking to a news conference, Luc Bourdon, director-general of rail safety, said engineers must perform a push-pull test with a locomotive to ensure the train cannot move.

Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway officials have said handbrakes were applied on the train that rolled driverless into Lac-Megantic, Quebec on the weekend, leaving 50 people confirmed dead or still missing.

http://www.thestar.c...rked-train.aspx

[LJ]

This is the way things are done in the US, they make good sense, and I can't see how we'd do it differently:



So essentially, you have to put on as many hand barkes as necessary, depending on many factors, then you must perform a test, where all air brakes are released, to make sure the hand brakes are working well enough.

*** pdf: http://www.blet213.o...ed_12-15-08.pdf

So what was the purpose of having one engine running if it was not required to maintain air pressure.

I'm thinking lazy employee, wants to get to the pub, leaves engine running to use airbrakes instead of taking the time to shut down and apply hand brakes.

The only other explanation is vandalism/terrorism by somebody who had the knowledge and time to release all the handbrakes that had been set.

[Holden West]

Someone mentioned a chock, and I think they were joking but wouldn't a boot of some kind bolted to a wheel prevent rolling? I can't believe we're even having this discussion. This is two hundred year old technology.

[VicHockeyFan]

^^ Hopefully it all comes out. Not sure if hand-brake settings on any of the tanks can be determined now, in their state. But all five locomotives should have had them applied, and apparently they ended up 600M past town, not sure who got there first to take a look-see. Not sure if black box will have that info. I don't think so.

[eseedhouse]

Someone mentioned a chock, and I think they were joking but wouldn't a boot of some kind bolted to a wheel prevent rolling? I can't believe we're even having this discussion. This is two hundred year old technology.

Just roll it onto a siding and reset the joins. In this case apparently there was a siding but it was not used. I don't know, there might have been a valid reason for that.

[VicHockeyFan]

So what was the purpose of having one engine running if it was not required to maintain air pressure.

In my experience that would not be unusual. A couple hours of an idling train is no big deal. These trains are diesel-electric, when idling they are not driving the generator and motor under any load. Small potatoes in energy use.

(I'm not sure if I've noted in this thread that my father worked for CP/VIA for over 30 years, and I worked a few summers for CP, which included me driving the odd train around the yard - very infrequently. But I was trained in some very basics, that were specific to yard use of the engines, nothing out on the main line that would require tons more training and certification. In the yard you don't cross street crossings etc. and you are restricted to 2mph, and with always the bell ringing.)

[VicHockeyFan]

Just roll it onto a siding and reset the joins. In this case apparently there was a siding but it was not used. I don't know, there might have been a valid reason for that.

Returning to the main line, off a siding, will throw the switch and generally not derail the train, even if the switch is locked. It'll go back onto the main line smoothly in most cases. If you really want to prevent the train coming back onto the main line, you need to place a derailer.

[LJ]

In my experience that would not be unusual. A couple hours of an idling train is no big deal. These trains are diesel-electric, when idling they are not driving the generator and motor under any load. Small potatoes in energy use.

(I'm not sure if I've noted in this thread that my father worked for CP/VIA for over 30 years, and I worked a few summers for CP, which included me driving the odd train around the yard - very infrequently. But I was trained in some very basics, that were specific to yard use of the engines, nothing out on the main line that would require tons more training and certification. In the yard you don't cross street crossings etc. and you are restricted to 2mph, and with always the bell ringing.)

Well the driver was parking it for the night so it would likely have been 10 hours or more.

[VicHockeyFan]

Well the driver was parking it for the night so it would likely have been 10 hours or more.

I don't think so, another driver was coming to get it in just a few hours.

Anyway, now the railway owner is blaming the engineer. He's gone from blaming unknown vandals, to blaming the Nantes Fire Department, to blaming the engineer.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...estigation.html

Engineer in Lac-Mégantic train disaster suspended

The engineer in charge of the train that derailed and exploded in Lac-Mégantic is "under police control," according to the head of the rail company.

At an impromptu news conference, Ed Burkhardt, the president of Railworld Inc., remained unflappable as he addressed a flurry of reporters who crowded around him.

He said the engineer has been suspended without pay.

“The fact is he’s under the police control. He’s not, as I understand, in jail, but the police have talked about prosecuting him,” Burkhardt said.

[VicHockeyFan]

He said Wednesday that a train engineer has been suspended without pay.

"I think he did something wrong. It's hard to explain why someone didn't do something," Burkhardt said. "We think he applied some hand brakes but the question is did he apply enough of them. He said he applied 11 hand brakes we think that's not true. Initially we believed him but now we don't."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz2YftVvXaF

The "black box" should be able to tell if he did a push-pull test after setting the hand brakes.

http://en.wikipedia...._event_recorder

Canadian regulations provide in the "Locomotives Design Requirements (Part II)"

"12. Event Recorders. 12.1 Controlling locomotives other than in designated and/or yard service, shall be equipped with an event recorder meeting the following minimum design criteria: The event recorder shall record time, distance, speed, brake pipe pressure, throttle position, emergency brake application, independent brake cylinder pressure, horn signal and Reset Safety Control function"[5]

[Rob Randall]

Amazing before and after:

http://news.national...-downtown-core/

[Sparky]

Wow!

[VicHockeyFan]

^ ^ GREAT find Rob! I'd been looking for something with a closer resolution (no Steet View in that town), and still wasn't exactly sure where the Musi-Cafe was. Emphasis on the WAS.

[LJ]

Anyway, now the railway owner is blaming the engineer. He's gone from blaming unknown vandals, to blaming the Nantes Fire Department, to blaming the engineer.

Geez, he is the same guy that was calling the engineer a hero less than 12 hours ago.