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Examples of trash culture...


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#21 Holden West

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:21 AM

There's a mind-boggling amount of contradiction and lack of critical thinking in Mr. Hartnell's above post so I will focus on one issue for now. K-os is well known not just for his talent and popularity but for the positive message in his lyrics, which often deal with spirituality, self-knowlege and promotion of non-violence, and has been particularly critical of violence and negative behaviour within the hip-hop community.

So if K-os doesn't qualify as suitable, what in God's name does? I'm certain that by those standards virtually all pop music past and present is disqualified. Indeed, why don't we ban Wagner as well for his anti-Semitism. Mr. Hartnell, give me an example of your idea of an appropriate musical act suitable for the arena. Surely we can't fill the arena and the Royal Theatre on a year round basis with Louise Rose and the Gettin' Higher Choir?

And why single out music? By logical extension this cultural fatwa must apply to dance, theatre and the visual arts. I have seen performances in Victoria of all three branches of the arts which would have to be banned under your new rules. Such an edict would drive a stake through the heart of Victoria's arts community.

The fact is, this plan hovers dangerously close to the "Blue Laws" of old, and cast so wide a net to be unenforceable.

Adding another layer of expensive bureaucracy to scrutinize every cultural event or performer who dared set foot in this city is frankly, to be kind, unpractical and unlikely.
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#22 Jada

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 10:00 AM

The new arena is too big for local musical groups. I work with the board of directors for a local musical festival, and there is no way we could ever afford, or even fill to profitable capacity, the Memorial Arena.

As well, the Arena was built to bring in such acts that previously bypassed Victoria. The Royal has always been great at bringing in acts that please the older crowd, but the younger crowd want to dance, drink and surf the large crowds. Thats what the Arena is for. Im only assuming, but your post leads me to believe that you are not among the younger generation anymore, MR Hartnell, and perhaps youve lost the sense of being apart of a generation who loves excitement, change, and loud, trashy music.

#23 Mike K.

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 10:11 AM

^interesting point.

I still don't understand why a mayoral candidate would alienate thousands of individuals by claiming that their choice in music is garbage.

I wonder, since most voters are older, if Mr Hartnell would be so willing to stand up against "trash" acts enjoyed by the older generations? Surely musicians popular in the 50s, 60s and 70s and who are enjoying renewed interest by sentimental boomers weren't all chuch-going saints in their day.

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#24 NMP

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 10:13 AM

Mr. Hartnell's musical preferences is his business, just as other people preferences is theirs and NOT his business. Arguing about that is pointless, but this part is very bothersome:

The real point is that the City apparently has absolutely no control whatsoever over what is programmed


Mr. Hartnell, do you have any experience of living in the society that actually implemented the ideas similar to yours? Control over what should and should not be shown to the public; concept of public being too naive or stupid or otherwise incapable of making sensible choices. List goes on.

I doubt you have slightest idea of how extremely not pretty it gets.

#25 FunkyMunky

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 01:52 PM

As a local working artist, I submit that public subsidization of groups such as Swollen Members... at public venues such as Centennial Square, the new arena, Ship's Point, etc. are simply not in the public interest, and do not advance the growth of local culture in any way.

I confused. What exactly is the subsidy that you are talking about? Just because the city owns a building and hires a third party to management it, that does not mean groups that rent the facility are being subsidised by the taxpayers. What evidence is there that the city is renting its facilities at less than market rate (which would constitute a subsidy) or is there some other mechanism for this subsidy?

#26 Baro

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 03:18 PM

I'd be more upset if the city paid to host events that only entertained a single and small portion of the local population. We've got all sorts of shows going on in town, I don't happen to like ANY of them, but I don't complain to city hall. These acts attract people downtown, they are good for business. Take music out of downtown, take shows out of downtown, and you've just taken a large amount of business away from local restaurants, local shops, local pubs. Music and such events in the city are a draw and cost the city little directly, and more than pay for them selves with increased business downtown from both locals and tourists.

The city isn't supporting a neo-nazi rally, as that would most certainly not be in the public interest as an almost unanamous portion of the population would be VERY against it. But with music, plays, entertaintment of all sorts, you will ALWAYS find 5-10% of people think it's garbage, it's trash. That's personal taste, and most sufficiently socialised people learn to understand and respect that people have different tastes.

The language you use is very objective sounding, as if you've already established the listed acts are trash, objectively. You are arguing from the point of view that we all agree it's trash, thus we go to the next step, discussing why we continue to allow trash. You need to back up, remind your self you're not living in Iran, and see that a tiny religious conservative minority does NOT govern what people can and can't like. Like it or not, culture in canada is very "free market", and according to the crowds these shows draw, they are solid gold, not trash.

In this country if you think something is immoral, bad, you need to convince the people that it is bad, actually change their minds. You can't demand government take a heavy-handed controling role in peoples tastes. Isn't the right suposed to be about the government having LESS influence on peoples lives? Arnt conservatives suposed to support the free market? Apparently you only support the free market if you agree with what people are buying.

Cultural communism doesn't work and the very idea is offensive to most Canadians, although if you really want to live in such a society, I hear Saudi Arabia is always looking for skilled western workers.
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#27 Savannah

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 04:25 PM

K-os is well known not just for his talent and popularity but for the positive message in his lyrics, which often deal with spirituality, self-knowlege and promotion of non-violence, and has been particularly critical of violence and negative behaviour within the hip-hop community.


I'm kinda old, and the only place I've heard K-os is on CBC Radio.

I liked what I heard.

#28 TheVisionary

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 04:22 PM

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As a local working artist, I submit that public subsidization of groups such as Swollen Members, Avril Lavigne, World Wide Wrestling, K-os, Snoop Dog, etc. at public venues such as Centennial Square, the new arena, Ship's Point, etc. are simply not in the public interest, and do not advance the growth of local culture in any way.

I hope that answers your question.

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Many Victoria and island people want to pay big money to see pop culture icons. Whatever the PAYING customers want, they get as long as they PAY up. Who would produce a show if it doesn't perform economically, just to do it?

Modern society is similar to Ancient Romans. Romans had Collisseum gladiatorial games. Our modern society has rock concerts and WWE Wrestling. They wanted blood and we want blood now. Unhappy Roman patrons riot and overthrow the emperors if the games sucked! Modern people riot and get into drunken brawls if the sport games and concerts suck. :?

#29 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 09:34 PM

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As a local working artist, I submit that public subsidization of groups such as Swollen Members, Avril Lavigne, World Wide Wrestling, K-os, Snoop Dog, etc. at public venues such as Centennial Square, the new arena, Ship's Point, etc. are simply not in the public interest, and do not advance the growth of local culture in any way.

I hope that answers your question.

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Many Victoria and island people want to pay big money to see pop culture icons. Whatever the PAYING customers want, they get as long as they PAY up. Who would produce a show if it doesn't perform economically, just to do it?

Modern society is similar to Ancient Romans. Romans had Collisseum gladiatorial games. Our modern society has rock concerts and WWE Wrestling. They wanted blood and we want blood now. Unhappy Roman patrons riot and overthrow the emperors if the games sucked! Modern people riot and get into drunken brawls if the sport games and concerts suck. :?

I oppose a cultural fatwah, as proposed by the poster you're responding to, but what you're proposing is a race to the bottom, which is as unsavoury (not to mention unattractive, and really, given that life is so damn short -- something which you, young man, have as yet failed to grasp -- is there anything worse than unattractive, i.e., repulsive?) as any guilt-driven moralizing culture can muster. Think of a snake biting its tail: at some point, it's a vicious circle.

Actually, if you want a pretty good overview, told as a great ripping yarn, of life under the precepts you propose, why not hie yourself over to the Greater Victoria Public Library to rent their VHS (alas, I believe DVD is unavailable) series, starting with the deceptively innocuous Volume 1, of the multi-episode series [url=http://www.historyinfilm.com/claudius/:01fad]I, Claudius[/url:01fad]?
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#30 TheVisionary

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 04:01 PM

[quote name='Ms. B. Havin'][quote name='TheVisionary'][quote name='"Gregory Hartnell":41db2']+++

As a local working artist, I submit that public subsidization of groups such as Swollen Members, Avril Lavigne, World Wide Wrestling, K-os, Snoop Dog, etc. at public venues such as Centennial Square, the new arena, Ship's Point, etc. are simply not in the public interest, and do not advance the growth of local culture in any way.

I hope that answers your question.

+++[/quote]
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Many Victoria and island people want to pay big money to see pop culture icons. Whatever the PAYING customers want, they get as long as they PAY up. Who would produce a show if it doesn't perform economically, just to do it?

Modern society is similar to Ancient Romans. Romans had Collisseum gladiatorial games. Our modern society has rock concerts and WWE Wrestling. They wanted blood and we want blood now. Unhappy Roman patrons riot and overthrow the emperors if the games sucked! Modern people riot and get into drunken brawls if the sport games and concerts suck. :?[/quote]
I oppose a cultural fatwah, as proposed by the poster you're responding to, but what you're proposing is a race to the bottom, which is as unsavoury (not to mention unattractive, and really, given that life is so damn short -- something which you, young man, have as yet failed to grasp -- is there anything worse than unattractive, i.e., repulsive?) as any guilt-driven moralizing culture can muster. Think of a snake biting its tail: at some point, it's a vicious circle.

Actually, if you want a pretty good overview, told as a great ripping yarn, of life under the precepts you propose, why not hie yourself over to the Greater Victoria Public Library to rent their VHS (alas, I believe DVD is unavailable) series, starting with the deceptively innocuous Volume 1, of the multi-episode series [url=http://www.historyinfilm.com/claudius/:41db2]I, Claudius[/url:41db2]?[/quote:41db2]
===============================================

I know the BBC series I CLAUDIUS. It had many famous and international calibre actors in it: John Hurt, Patrick Stewart, Sian Phillips, others. That Roman Emperor Caligula is such a "party boy" isn't he? He had affairs with his officials' wifes/sisters/mothers/nieces/daughters, and even their male friends and relatives too.

The Praetorian Guards had to assassinate him because he was too insane to rule. The imperial bodyguards then placed his uncle Claudius on the throne. 8)

#31 theguy

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 02:42 PM

Hartnell is a very, very strange cat. A professional troublemaker, judging from his failed mayoral bid and addled letters to Monday magazine, etc.

Best to ignore him. You'd think as an 'artist" he might be open minded on the arts... but no..

I'd love to see his art, by the way.

p.s. His typically loony antics are reflected in this Monday article:

From Monday Magazine, July 18, 2002

By Russ Francis

Gregory Hartnell has been having a little difficulty tracking down candidates to run for
the Victoria city council on behalf of his Greater Victoria Concerned Citizens’ Association.

After he issued a statement last month suggesting that councillor Denis Savoie and former mayor
Peter Pollen would be on his slate, both vigorously denied it.

#32 Mike K.

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 02:51 PM

theguy, it would be beneficial to disclose your political affiliations and/or personal political goals before making statements against an individual.

This website does not support attacking individuals but rather discussing their opinions. I hope you can respect that policy.

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#33 Gregory Hartnell

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 06:04 PM

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Mr. Francis erred in his Monday Magazine assertion that I suggested that Mr. Pollen and Ms. Savoie would be on the Concerned Citizens' "slate." Unless my memory is failing me, I do not believe that I ever suggested any such thing, but rather did note in various letters to local publications that both of them had expressed grave misgivings about the arena deal on a number of occasions.

Mr. Pollen subsequently came to one of the Concerned Citizens' public events at Saint Anne's Academy around that time, and offered us very polite and helpful advice, but declined our invitation to run for mayor again, much to our regret. I recall seeing Mr. Francis at that event, but he did not subsequently report on it, I do not believe.

I ackowledge that Ms. Savoie was concerned not to have her name associated with the Concerned Citizens, and so to clarify the matter for the public record, I apologized to her in open letters sent to local media for any confusion in that regard.

Although disappointed that Denise Savoie subsequently stopped her criticisms of the flawed arena deal after the bogus referendum Mayor Lowe concocted to get the $30,000,000 loan to finance the scheme, I continue to enjoy cordial relations with both Ms. Savoie and ex-mayor Pollen.

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