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Developer funds trip to Calgary for CALUC


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#21 aastra

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 11:32 AM

I'd like to see what the developer's Calgary projects look like. I've yet to be impressed by anything coming out of Alberta, and the prospect of Alberta developers making converts out of Victoria's naysayers is extremely unsettling to me.

#22 gumgum

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 11:56 AM

I don't see the big deal because as I had written before, I don't see this a a form of a bribe, which is what people were alluding to.
My point is that this a hell of a lot of this is open to interpretation.
All we "know" (and let's be honest, we really don't know anything here.) is that she accepted a flight to another city to look at a building or two. She could have flown in, looked at these buildings and left on the same day.
Maybe she was convinced that she needed to be educated on something regarding this project by looking at past projects. Maybe she decided it was the "fair" thing to do - to try and understand something from someone elses perspective. None of us really know.
We shouldn't jump on our soapbox and annouce a person's sins if we don't know the whole story. That's not ethical either.

#23 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 12:03 PM

... if we don't know the whole story. That's not ethical either.

Which is why I have emphasized that I'd like to know what the Vic.West Comm.Ass.'s position or role in this was. Perhaps Cpt. Highliner can provide the text of the notice that discussed the trip (the one he mentions at the beginning of this thread)? Or maybe there're a couple of forumers who live in VicWest and could ask their Comm. Ass. about this?

And re. aastra's comments about what the Calgary projects actually look like: me, too, I'm on tenterhooks!
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#24 gumgum

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 12:12 PM

...maybe there're a couple of forumers who live in VicWest and could ask their Comm. Ass. about this?

Until then, we should reserve judgment.

#25 G-Man

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 12:16 PM

I just surfed the Vic West site and can't find anything referring to it. Conveniently the Vic West AGM is next tuesday. So those that want a way to get directly involved in their community should go and sign up as members.

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#26 captain highliner

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 07:42 PM

Here's the passing mention of the trip, found in paragraph 8 of the editorial on page 4:

"...Bayview's Ken Mariash has invested thousands into engaging the community through visioning sessions, roundtable discussions and even a recent privately funded excursion to Calgary with several VWCA members and local residents."

If you want a copy, they're at Spiral Cafe.

The subject of the editorial is the non-incorporation of public input into the new Vic-West transportation plan, with Bayview and Dockside Green being touted as models of good public consultation.

I can not speak for the people who went on the trip. I hope that some of them are members of this forum so they can share their point of view on the matter. I didn't bring this up in order to slander anyone or make accusations of bribery. I just wanted to provide you with some news you may not otherwise have heard about.

The crux of the matter for me is how this represents a complete reorientation of the VWCA's position regarding Ken Mariash and Bayview. I recall going to a VWCA meeting just before the roundhouse open house a few months ago, and Diane Carr and Pam Madoff pretty much took turns hacking the guy. To go from that to accepting free trips from the guy is nothing short of amazing.

The bottom line is that each development must be evaluated on its own merits, as supported by the renderings, plans, and various studies required by the city. Though the trip in itself is no real form of inducement to influence a decision, there's got to be some psychological effect that flying around the country and getting to feel like a real player in the development world has on these people.

At the very least I think that this needs to be brought to light so that people can make up their own minds about it.

#27 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:03 PM

Well, I think it's a really interesting transformation, and I hope someone here goes to the AGM, that it gets brought up at the AGM, and that whoever went to the AGM posts a report on this forum. Inquiring minds want to know...!
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#28 G-Man

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:09 PM

I know at least one person on this forum officially lives in Vic West.

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#29 Scaper

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:38 PM

Two for sure!!!

I am having so many problems with my computer.....everytime I log in...No lights show up for the threads I haven't seen. So I missed this one...

I have a major problem with this!! But for all the points that have been brought up!!!

#30 gumgum

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:43 PM

Thanks for the info Highliner.
I didn't think you were alluding to anything btw.

#31 Urbalist

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 07:21 PM

The real big picture of the excursion was education. Community members are rarely knowledgable in planning, urban design, traffic mgmt., green bldgs, etc. But they do have very strongly voiced opinions. Sometimes, and some would say often, these opinions are very, very misguided.

The next time you hear one state an opinion, no matter how well versed and recited - ask them for the rationale behind it. How many years they've spent testing and monitoring the issue. That's when the cracks show in their confidence, that's when they get weak and scattered.

My understanding is that there's a lot of momentum for the design and density of the remainder of Songhees. So it's not as though Bayview needs to 'buy' support for zoning. If anything, the sales process and revenues will improve if people from around the globe aren't surfing Vic West and find out that the 'hood is a miserable group of people-haters who want that portion of the City to freeze in evolution.

With rare exception, the most informed people on urbanism in this City have travelled extensively, and experience what works and what doesn't elsewhere. People that don't get off the Island very much (or at all), will hav a very dim, sheltered view of the rest of this urbanized country, and of the cultural world.

So, the trip to Cowtown - the City that gave Vancouver it's new Director of Planning to replace Larry Beasley - is be purely educational for the Vic West crew, so they can see the shoulder neighborhoods around downtown Calgary, and there some fine ones, and not so fine ones. The people that did go volunteered a good chunk of their time and should fully report back to their community to share that new knowledge.

I'm glad Bayview offered and I admire the Vic Westers for accepting.

#32 Mike K.

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 07:35 PM

Calgary is trying to emulate Vancouver's condo success, so why send the vic west posse to Calgary? Certainly not to emulate Calgary's success of emulating Vancouver, but to prove that you stand behind your word and build what you promise to build. My sense is that the vic west crew was anxious about Bayview's plans and, having already developed property there, the trip out east gave our travelers a sense of what the developer had already accomplished.

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#33 G-Man

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 09:13 PM

Urbalist, if what you say is true then who are those people we call City Council?

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#34 Urbalist

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 10:05 PM

Man G, your short questions are vague, a bit of detail would help - unless your begging the question - but I will say this. All of what I say is true, I don't fabricate nor exaggerate. Nothing is gained.

And in terms of Council, they are our fairly and duly elected reps, they are also real people, fellow citizens and Canadians and we ought to work with them, even if that means taking time to educate and persuade. They have chosen extremely difficult jobs for $21k/yr.

I will pass judgement on Saturday, November 15, 2008, but until that time, I will support them to get the best results, and respect their decisions.

#35 G-Man

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 09:39 AM

The real big picture of the excursion was education. Community members are rarely knowledgable in planning, urban design, traffic mgmt., green bldgs, etc. But they do have very strongly voiced opinions. Sometimes, and some would say often, these opinions are very, very misguided.


Many council members claim they are well travelled but still act as if they have never travelled as far as Mill Bay when making decisions.

Anyways I am still not convinced by your explanation there is nothing that they could not have learned though computers, videos or looking at similar architectual examples around Victoria or at the very least Vancouver. Despite the chance that these people may not be well travelled I beleive form those I have seen speak that these are extremely intelligent people and could certainly have figured out the developers message without this field trip.

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