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Developer funds trip to Calgary for CALUC


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#1 captain highliner

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 07:29 PM

I thought you all may be interested in a rumour which has now been substantiated.

Last month I heard that Bayview Properties/Ken Mariash flew members of the Vic-West Community Association Land Use Committee, including noted anti-highrise activist Dianne Carr to Calgary on a private jet. This was intended to give members an on the ground view of this developer's projects in that city.

In the editorial of this month's Vic-West Voice, the VWCA's newspaper, a passing mention was made of this trip.

Now I don't know if there's anything wrong with this, but it sure seems wierd that a group of people who have made a reputation for playing hardball with developers is suddenly accepting expenses paid trips on private jets from these same developers.

#2 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 07:36 PM

I see no problem with it.
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#3 G-Man

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 07:40 PM

Ummm... Well I am pretty sure that sort of thing would be frowned upon by other associations. Anywyas they are accountable to there constituents which could throw them out though I doubt anything will come of it. The right thing would have been to say thanks but no thanks pictures will do just fine.

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#4 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 07:45 PM

Why should a "field trip" be considered a perk? Going there would be better than pictures, and as long as there is no wine, caviar and $400 hotel rooms (complete with $300/hr hookers) then I think it's just fine. Especially the hooker part.
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#5 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 07:54 PM

Well, it strikes me as a bit fishy. At the very least, the trip should have been on the community association's agenda as a discussion item (*), perhaps even with a notice sent out to the association's membership. Perhaps this was done?

I think that if the Land Use Committee of my community association accepted a trip like that, from a developer planning a major project in my neighbourhood (and one who presumably is planning more), I would consider it a conflict of interest, especially if there wasn't full disclosure beforehand.

It does not seem quite ethical, as far as I'm concerned.

(*) Well in advance of the actual trip, I mean.
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#6 G-Man

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 08:11 PM

^ Exactly. If the the Assoc. paid to go on their own to check it out then ok but not on the developers dime. Yes these are volunteer orgs. but they operate within the framwork of cityhall and we wouldn't accept if the Advisory Design Panel were sent to Calgary to check out a project, they are volunteers. I see no difference.

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#7 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 08:17 PM

^ Exactly. If the the Assoc. paid to go on their own to check it out then ok but not on the developers dime. Yes these are volunteer orgs. but they operate within the framwork of cityhall and we wouldn't accept if the Advisory Design Panel were sent to Calgary to check out a project, they are volunteers. I see no difference.


How can knowing more about a project be a bad thing? Again, if it's a bare-bones trip, it's no luxury. It is more a pain than anything. Not every trip is a "vacation". Ask any person who must travel frequently for a living.
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#8 captain highliner

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 08:18 PM

I'm not sure that there's a conflict of interest here, it just screams "bad optics". Especially when some of these same people went out of their way to criticise other land use committees' relationships with developers.

For example, what if Westbank had paid to send someone from the Downtown Residents Assoc. on a free trip to one of their projects in another province in order to build support for The Falls? What would Dianne Carr have said about that when she was in the process of lobbying against that project? Not to mention the attitude that the VWCA initially took towards Ken Mariash when he first unveiled The Roundhouse project. It's soooo hypocritical.

#9 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 08:53 PM

VHF, it's a question of ethics and, as Cpt.Highliner puts it, "bad optics." If you undertake a volunteer position like this -- or if you're an elected official -- you're laying yourself open to charges of conflict of interest, regardless of whether there were "luxury" or "spartan" hotel rooms involved or not involved. It's a question of influence. As far as I'm concerned, this totally disqualifies Ms. Carr from public office (should she be considering a run for council), because if she's willing to do this while a mere volunteer on a community board, whatever will she do if elected to city hall?
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#10 aastra

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 09:55 PM

This was intended to give members an on the ground view of this developer's projects in that city.


I don't know about you guys but the implication of this scares the hell out of me. You're attempting to sway anti-development types by showing them new construction...in Calgary??

I suppose it could be worse. They could've taken them to see Edmonton.

I'm not kidding. If looking like Alberta is the alternative to looking like Vancouver then God help Victoria.

#11 G-Man

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 07:13 AM

^Good Point I hadn't even thought of that side of the issue.

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#12 Cascadia

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 10:06 AM

The optics would have been better if they had flowen them out on Westjet.

#13 Mike K.

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 06:07 PM

^agreed.

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#14 gumgum

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:51 AM

A private jet doesn't constitute a bribe - which is what some of you are alluding.
Unless there is someting more to this, I don't see anything wrong with it.

#15 G-Man

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:58 AM

It is not a bribe, correct, but when you live in the public realm perception is everything. Being flown on a developer's private jet to see more of their developments could be perceived as a conflict of interest.

Remember doctors are no longer allowed to get flown around for presentations by drug companies. It is essentially the same thing. There is not necessarily anything nefarious going on but it should not be done.

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#16 gumgum

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:00 AM

Yeah but that's different. Drug companies would pamper - take them out for expensive meals, buy them gifts, take them to fancy golf clubs, etc.
There's no evidence of this here.

#17 G-Man

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:05 AM

It wouldn't be allowed for a politician and Community Associations are funded by the City and those sitting on the Board of Directors are elected by the membership who are essentially the electorate of the area. Perhaps those at the VWCA don't care and that is really all that matters.

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#18 Mike K.

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:06 AM

Isn't Diane Carr a council hopeful for the next election? If she is, this was a bad move on her part.

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#19 gumgum

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 10:26 AM

Are VHF and I that don't see the big deal?

#20 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 11:12 AM

Are VHF and I that don't see the big deal?

I don't think it's a question of it being a "big deal," but then again I'm married to a person who argued with me about whether it was ethical to burn a CD from the library to my computer. I argued that it was, since as a taxpayer, I'm part owner of that CD, bought by the library. My spouse disagreed -- even though we both agree that the Digital Millennium cppyright (copywrongs, more like) act is designed only to protect corporations, but that's another issue. Then again, I also don't take paperclips from the office or use office copiers/ printers for personal material (i.e., non-work related). This is all small fry stuff (and some of you are probably ROFLMAO), as flying to Calgary at someone else's expense may indeed appear to be to some. But that doesn't mean that it's not important. I really do think it's an ethics question: if you do your personal copying at the office, what else are you willing to -- let's call it by its real name -- steal? And if you take up an offer to tour a developer's projects at his expense (while that same developer is developing in the neighbourhood on whose land use committee you supposedly impartially sit), then I have to wonder what your ethics are, especially if you don't even recognize that it does raise a problem, whether it's "bad optics" or bad ethics.

Qualifier: I'll stand by that, unless it turns out that this junket was approved by the Vic. West Community Association membership.
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