Jump to content

      



























Photo

[Bicycles] Bike lanes and cycling infrastructure in Victoria and the south Island


  • Please log in to reply
11042 replies to this topic

#7421 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 82,943 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:10 AM

Are we certain that it was always maps, but never maps and data? If that's the case then I am mistaken. The CRD did supply me with raw numbers last year.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#7422 shoeflack

shoeflack
  • Member
  • 2,861 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:12 AM

Are we certain that it was always maps, but never maps and data? If that's the case then I am mistaken. The CRD did supply me with raw numbers last year.

 

Here's what the page looked like in July 2017, and here in October 2016. Just maps, no raw data.


Edited by shoeflack, 08 January 2019 - 09:13 AM.


#7423 Coreyburger

Coreyburger
  • Member
  • 2,864 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:13 AM

Are we certain that it was always maps, but never maps and data? If that's the case then I am mistaken. The CRD did supply me with raw numbers last year.

 

Quite certain - I asked for a data pull shortly after you did and had to email the CRD directly.



#7424 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 82,943 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:14 AM

Ah, ok so that's where I'm mistaken. The data was delivered to me and not accessed via the website. My bad. With vehicle data being displayed as raw numbers that threw me for a loop. What's with the .kmz downloads on the page? It looks like data but I can't open the file.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#7425 Coreyburger

Coreyburger
  • Member
  • 2,864 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:17 AM

Ah, ok so that's where I'm mistaken. The data was delivered to me and not accessed via the website. My bad. With vehicle data being displayed as raw numbers that threw me for a loop. What's with the .kmz downloads on the page? It looks like data but I can't open the file.

 

Those KMZ files were done before I started with the CRD and I don't think they had been updated. They are Google Earth files. The CRD did a bike count, a one off, in 2006 that I wasn't involved in. I think the data is from there (but haven't looked at the KMZ in years)



#7426 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 82,943 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:33 AM

Ok, gotcha.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#7427 Cats4Hire

Cats4Hire
  • Member
  • 1,393 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:29 PM

Not really sure which topic is correct for this but I have a quick question for Corey. I saw you on the news today talking about the Douglas bus/bike lanes and how it's uncomfortable to be riding with buses right behind you. I know you proposed a solution but unless that happens I'm curious why not just ride down Blanshard which has dedicated bike lanes the whole way Douglas does, until you get to the cross street closest to your destination (bonus if that happens to be Pandora or Fort)? Sure they aren't protected lanes but wouldn't that be more desirable than having a bus on your wheels the whole trip?



#7428 On the Level

On the Level
  • Member
  • 2,891 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:14 PM

I call bogus.  Range Bubbles vs Traffic Counts. 

 

Sorry Coreyburger, but you are too bike special interest to provide any objective counts or inclusive analysis.  

 

 

The best of VV.  Attacking someone's professional integrity because they like to ride a bicycle.

 

No-one is attacking anyone "because they ride a bike".  I am not suggesting Coreyburger would produce false statistics but it should be acceptable to point out that his posts on this thread are cycling based. This thread has a long history of a group of members lobbying for more bike infrastructure and there is nothing wrong with that.   There are other members identifying challenges caused by the current bike infrastructure approach and that *should* be part of the conversation on an equal level.    

 

There are some real issues for those that cannot ride a bike for a variety of reasons.  I quite frankly would not expect Coreyburger to advocate for those citizens, especially if the solutions needed go against his lobbying efforts.

 

30 years of the CRD strategic plan pushing development outside of the core cannot be ignored.  


  • sdwright.vic likes this

#7429 Coreyburger

Coreyburger
  • Member
  • 2,864 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:56 PM

Not really sure which topic is correct for this but I have a quick question for Corey. I saw you on the news today talking about the Douglas bus/bike lanes and how it's uncomfortable to be riding with buses right behind you. I know you proposed a solution but unless that happens I'm curious why not just ride down Blanshard which has dedicated bike lanes the whole way Douglas does, until you get to the cross street closest to your destination (bonus if that happens to be Pandora or Fort)? Sure they aren't protected lanes but wouldn't that be more desirable than having a bus on your wheels the whole trip?

 

This is very much like the old Vancouver model - put a bike route one block over from the major arterial. It is not the new Vancouver model, because when they went out and looked at safety, they found that the major arterials were the most dangerous place to bike, because people want to bike directly to their destination on the street their destination is on (just like people want to drive, walk or take transit - it is the way humans are wired). The new Vancouver model is to build the protected bike lane on the street where people want to ride. This is why Vancouver is one of the few NA cities with consistently rising ridership.

 

As for the specifics, you have three north-south connections:

Government: very poor bike lane (deadly, in fact), ends at Hillside

Douglas: flattest, straightest route with the most destinations, but has bus/bike lane

Blanshard: not as flat, not many destinations, terrible bike lane (better than Govt, but not by much). This is also why Blanshard is a terrible bus route

 

So Blanshard works for some, but not all. Gov't (when built to a AAA standard) will work for some, but not all. Long-term, good urban places need good bike lanes.

 

EDIT: Should also mention: the bus/bike lane begins two blocks north of Pandora, currently the northern-most AAA bikeway in the city. So it isn't relevant to this discussion - the section of Douglas St from Fisgard to Fort has bike lanes


Edited by Coreyburger, 08 January 2019 - 10:58 PM.

  • Cats4Hire likes this

#7430 On the Level

On the Level
  • Member
  • 2,891 posts

Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:14 PM

This is very much like the old Vancouver model - put a bike route one block over from the major arterial. It is not the new Vancouver model, because when they went out and looked at safety, they found that the major arterials were the most dangerous place to bike, because people want to bike directly to their destination on the street their destination is on (just like people want to drive, walk or take transit - it is the way humans are wired). 

 

So what is the analysis and management of all transportation needs?  95% of transportation is non bike.  Transportation will be pushed to multiple blocks around major arterial routes.



#7431 sam

sam
  • Member
  • 192 posts

Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:09 PM

Quite looking forward to this - unless they cherry pick their data (which I wouldn't put it past them), they are actually likely to find more people biking given the increases in the past two years on the new bike lanes.

 

For reference: Census Canada collected data in May 2016, CRD in Sept-Nov 2017

 

Corey, perhaps GVCC would like to help FOCUS with the transportation aspect of this project? We are committed to the project, but one aspect of it not yet explained is that we are hoping to develop methods for gathering data that directly involve residents of the City of Victoria. For example, right now we are recording digital videos of one major City of Victoria intersection each day. When possible, we record everything that moves through the intersection during a two-hour period, from around 3:15 to 5:15. That's the easy part.

 

After that each session needs to be analyzed for each mode over that two-hour period: for autos, pedestrians, cyclists and buses. There is also the occasional skateboarder, electric scooter, etc, that needs to be counted. It takes a lot of hours to accurately analyze each day's video. Would the GVCC be willing to help analyze our videos? They are unbroken (except for battery changes), shot in 4K and quite interesting (to me) to watch.

 

As quickly as we can we are posting the unanalyzed videos, jacked up to 8x speed, on Youtube. We will try to shoot a video every day in January. If you have any suggestions on what intersection you think we should include, feel free to make those known here on VV.

 

They're shot on a waterproof GoPro, so we'll be out there rain or shine.

 

We will repeat this whole process quarterly so that we can create an accurate, checkable account of mode share throughout the year. It's a long-term process, so I hope you won't make any assumptions based on the fact that we are beginning this project in January.

 

Please let me know if the GVCC would like to be involved. To other interested VV members, I'd love to hear from you, too, if you can help.

 

Below I've attached a link to the video (uploaded in 4K, so adjust your screen resolution to 1080p using the Youtube control at the bottom of the window) for the intersection of Pandora and Vancouver between 3:15 and 5:15 on January 7.

 

Sincerely,

 

David Broadland

publisher, Focus Magazine

 

Edit: The Youtube link doesn't seem to be showing up here, so you might need to go to Youtube and search for "Intersection of Pandora and Vancouver, January 7, 2019".


 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D73HdVCoXVk


Edited by sam, 09 January 2019 - 12:13 PM.


#7432 RFS

RFS
  • Member
  • 5,444 posts

Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:16 PM

The head of the BC transit bus drivers union was on Chek News saying that bikes sharing the bus lane is slowing buses down for several blocks and sometimes the entirety of Douglas.  Great design  :thumbsup:


  • sdwright.vic likes this

#7433 Coreyburger

Coreyburger
  • Member
  • 2,864 posts

Posted 09 January 2019 - 01:25 PM

We will repeat this whole process quarterly so that we can create an accurate, checkable account of mode share throughout the year. It's a long-term process, so I hope you won't make any assumptions based on the fact that we are beginning this project in January.

 

Short term counts (anything less than a week) are good for looking at mode share during that period, but little can be extrapolated well out from there. This is actually a fairly large industry, where companies purport to take counts, population data and mode share and try and create "models". They simply don't work, especially when you are looking at walking or biking data.

 

You  also can't take a few videos (or a few counts) and compare it to Origin & Destination studies or Census JtW data. You can compare it to other short-term counts, with the giant caveat that there is a huge amount of volatility in them for all modes. The sum of all the decision points about how, when, where and why to travel means that you see large spreads in average counts on what should be similar days.



#7434 FogPub

FogPub
  • Member
  • 980 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:18 AM

Tracking the same site at the same time of day for an entire month ought to provide enough data to at least give a reasonable average; and repeating this at three other times in the year (April, July and October I assume, as it does say 'quarterly') should be more than enough to point out seasonal variances.

 

Also useful would be if they could track the weather conditions (wind speed and direction, temperature, precipitation) during those same times so as to get at any weather-based pattern changes.

 

Another point of interest (though it'd be a PITA to even try to track in real time) would be the passenger load on any buses that passed through the study zone, though given the hours being tracked they'd probably be near or at their highest daily use levels.



#7435 Coreyburger

Coreyburger
  • Member
  • 2,864 posts

Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:12 AM

Tracking the same site at the same time of day for an entire month ought to provide enough data to at least give a reasonable average; and repeating this at three other times in the year (April, July and October I assume, as it does say 'quarterly') should be more than enough to point out seasonal variances.

 

Also useful would be if they could track the weather conditions (wind speed and direction, temperature, precipitation) during those same times so as to get at any weather-based pattern changes.

 

Another point of interest (though it'd be a PITA to even try to track in real time) would be the passenger load on any buses that passed through the study zone, though given the hours being tracked they'd probably be near or at their highest daily use levels.

 

Same location for a four full months might give you enough, but your data quality is going to be very low. Take a look at the variation you can get within existing permanent counters:

MV volumes: https://prdoas3.pub-....gov.bc.ca/tsg/

BIkes on the Goose: http://www.eco-publi...2/?id=100117730

.

Getting good counts is hard and expensive. Extrapolating monthly or yearly data from short term counts is very difficult, and for walking, biking and transit, nearly impossible right now due to lack of work in the field to determine how to do it.



#7436 nagel

nagel
  • Member
  • 5,751 posts

Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:24 AM

I'm no expert in this field (not even an amateur), but I prefer the hard counts of the eco counter for bikes which can be looked at for year over year or month over month data.  I'm glad there's another one coming to Government at Humboldt. 



#7437 spanky123

spanky123
  • Member
  • 20,960 posts

Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:34 AM

ISn't the whole science of statistical analysis built on taking small samples of random data and then building models from them!



#7438 Coreyburger

Coreyburger
  • Member
  • 2,864 posts

Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:41 AM

ISn't the whole science of statistical analysis built on taking small samples of random data and then building models from them!

 

yes, and a lot of garbage gets produced that way. The fundamental problem is that we are talking about human factors, which are notoriously unreliable



#7439 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 82,943 posts

Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:51 AM

So the City of Victoria relied on garbage data to assess the need for the bike lanes?

 

It wouldn't surprise me if municipalities look for ways to align their pet project-driven goals with hokey data or data aligned with a given outcome, but can we really say that reports like the CRD's transportation/travel assessments are largely unreliable?


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#7440 Cassidy

Cassidy
  • Banned
  • 2,501 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:57 AM

The head of the BC transit bus drivers union was on Chek News saying that bikes sharing the bus lane is slowing buses down for several blocks and sometimes the entirety of Douglas.  Great design  :thumbsup:

You've got one single person (the bike rider) being uncooperative and affecting the movement of 40 people on mass transit.

 

If the bike rider was truly cooperative and interested in promoting non-single vehicle commuting, our cyclist would stop and walk their bike up onto the sidewalk in order to let the bus pass ... but as we all know, cyclists are if anything - self-righteous, and most definitely not cooperative.

 

Thus you have buses forced to follow a cyclist slowly riding down the middle of the bus lane for the length of Douglas Street.



You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users