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[Bicycles] Bike lanes and cycling infrastructure in Victoria and the south Island


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#9421 Rex Waverly

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Posted 14 September 2020 - 11:04 PM

How many bikes are in the shared bus/bike lanes on Douglas at this same time? If I had to guess, even at this time of day, I bet the cars outnumber the bikes 10-to-1. Make that a rainy/windy night in November and I bet the ratio is 20-to-1.

 

Yeah, the concept of shared bus/bike lanes is pretty bizarre, that's for sure.  Definitely not all ages and abilities!   

 

My guess is that it was never the intention to encourage cyclists to use those lanes; rather, if it was just a bus lane, bikes wouldn't be legally allowed in them meaning that a cyclist on Douglas would be required to ride in the middle lane (clearly less than ideal).  



#9422 Brantastic

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 10:51 AM

How many bikes are in the shared bus/bike lanes on Douglas at this same time? If I had to guess, even at this time of day, I bet the cars outnumber the bikes 10-to-1. Make that a rainy/windy night in November and I bet the ratio is 20-to-1.

I'm pretty sure almost no cyclist thinks the shared bus/bike lanes are an improvement to their safety or even considers them bike lanes at all.



#9423 On the Level

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 10:57 AM

What about the design is 'poor'?  Is it the type of facility, or is it the roads that they are placed on?  I'm honestly curious, what alternate type or placement would you have chosen that still meets the goal of the bike network (i.e. create a robust AAA bike network that gives cyclists safe routes to home, school, work, retail, etc)?  

 

Also, the 'elephant in the room' is not being ignored; bike lanes get designed for peak volumes because obviously.  That's why roads are built to handle peak hour / seasonal volumes, even though that means they're overbuilt for like 20 hours a day (or 24 hours a day during non-peak seasons, where applicable).

 

(Also we design schools / universities to accommodate the peak number of students / staff even though they're empty all summer. Mall parking lots are designed to accommodate Christmas numbers, even though 11 months of the year it's way too much parking.)

 

The design is poor because it does not reflect the realities of all forms of transportation.  It takes away capacity, creates congestion and increases the carbon footprint.   If it had been done more cautiously, it wouldn't be causing transportation issues for the many at the benefit of the few.

 

Yes, roadways and bike lanes are empty at 3 AM, and need to have capacity for peak periods.   Yes, schools sit empty in the summer, but they also are designed to accept students during peak periods......not make it difficult for the majority of students to attend classes.  



#9424 Rex Waverly

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:03 PM

The design is poor because it does not reflect the realities of all forms of transportation.  It takes away capacity, creates congestion and increases the carbon footprint.   If it had been done more cautiously, it wouldn't be causing transportation issues for the many at the benefit of the few.

 

 

 

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but it seems to me like you don't agree with the concept of the AAA network, not the particular design of the cycle lanes. I'm not saying the design is perfect by any stretch, but no-one seems to be suggesting any ways they could be improved.  

 

If you don't like the concept of downtown AAA bike lanes, that's not a bad design but a flawed concept.  A bad design can be fixed; a flawed concept is (in this case) a difference of priorities, goals, and opinions.  



#9425 Ismo07

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:20 PM

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but it seems to me like you don't agree with the concept of the AAA network, not the particular design of the cycle lanes. I'm not saying the design is perfect by any stretch, but no-one seems to be suggesting any ways they could be improved.  

 

If you don't like the concept of downtown AAA bike lanes, that's not a bad design but a flawed concept.  A bad design can be fixed; a flawed concept is (in this case) a difference of priorities, goals, and opinions.  

 

I think he is still concerned about the two way lanes on a one way street and likely that there is a right turn light that slows traffic a little.



#9426 marks_28

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:22 PM

I think he is still concerned about the two way lanes on a one way street and likely that there is a right turn light that slows traffic a little.

 

Wasn't this done though to save parking spots? Which is something I'm sure most of this board would appreciate?


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#9427 On the Level

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:30 PM

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but it seems to me like you don't agree with the concept of the AAA network, not the particular design of the cycle lanes. I'm not saying the design is perfect by any stretch, but no-one seems to be suggesting any ways they could be improved.  

 

If you don't like the concept of downtown AAA bike lanes, that's not a bad design but a flawed concept.  A bad design can be fixed; a flawed concept is (in this case) a difference of priorities, goals, and opinions.  

 

My concern is that the bike lanes were designed with only the bike lanes in mind and not what is needed for transportation.  Did anyone study impact to overall transportation needs?  Not really.  

 

It's my main issue I have with the CoV council and it's all related.

 

- We won't consult with the broader public over John A MacDonald - only the city family decides and we won't think about how this might harm reconciliation

- We won't have a referendum on the Crystal Pool replacement which is required for funding

- We will give everyone a house first, and ignore what the consequence might be

- We will let the homeless become entrenched in city parks without thinking about "now what?"

- We are going to build AAA bike lanes and not bother to see what the outcome might be for the blind, public transit, traffic patterns, etc.

 

"We won't look into the impacts of our decisions because we might find something we don't want to see" is not a great way to govern a city or take on projects like the bike lanes.  


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#9428 Ismo07

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:30 PM

Wasn't this done though to save parking spots? Which is something I'm sure most of this board would appreciate?

 

Despite popular belief there is always an effort so keep/save parking spaces.  The early option was for a bike lane down Pandora and another up Johnson.  To make the fully protected with curbing etc the overall cost would have been quite a bit more if I recall.  I mean one day maybe that still happens if cycling gets to a number that the current two-way is too small so it changes to a west bound only and it gets decided to put another on Johnson to go east.  I'm spit balling and have no idea, I just think if expansion is needed something like that may occur.  



#9429 Ismo07

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:39 PM

My concern is that the bike lanes were designed with only the bike lanes in mind and not what is needed for transportation.  Did anyone study impact to overall transportation needs?  Not really.  

 

It's my main issue I have with the CoV council and it's all related.

 

- We won't consult with the broader public over John A MacDonald - only the city family decides and we won't think about how this might harm reconciliation

- We won't have a referendum on the Crystal Pool replacement which is required for funding

- We will give everyone a house first, and ignore what the consequence might be

- We will let the homeless become entrenched in city parks without thinking about "now what?"

- We are going to build AAA bike lanes and not bother to see what the outcome might be for the blind, public transit, traffic patterns, etc.

 

"We won't look into the impacts of our decisions because we might find something we don't want to see" is not a great way to govern a city or take on projects like the bike lanes.  

 

Oh regarding bike lanes, there has been a lot of work and study on all that you are thinking about and more, staff have spent a lot of time and effort and then follow up with adjustments.  Victoria is not the first City to have those floating bus stops for sure.  I'm certain some solution can be found.  If you don't agree with the two lane then that's fine.  If you don't like the extra light, little that can be done about that.  For the most part and into 3 years of the lanes, I walk along the Pandora one every day.  I'm ok with the use so far an moving forward.  It's growing as it's supposed to do.  Drivers are figuring it out.  I do see the congestion along Wharf but there are some other factors there as well, but it's not bad it's been slowed down, vehicles used to tear through there pretty fast at times.


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#9430 Rex Waverly

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:47 PM

My concern is that the bike lanes were designed with only the bike lanes in mind and not what is needed for transportation.  Did anyone study impact to overall transportation needs?  Not really.  

 

It's my main issue I have with the CoV council and it's all related.

 

- We won't consult with the broader public over John A MacDonald - only the city family decides and we won't think about how this might harm reconciliation

- We won't have a referendum on the Crystal Pool replacement which is required for funding

- We will give everyone a house first, and ignore what the consequence might be

- We will let the homeless become entrenched in city parks without thinking about "now what?"

- We are going to build AAA bike lanes and not bother to see what the outcome might be for the blind, public transit, traffic patterns, etc.

 

"We won't look into the impacts of our decisions because we might find something we don't want to see" is not a great way to govern a city or take on projects like the bike lanes.  

 

I'm sure there would have been traffic studies and modelling done of the impact of the bike lanes; for instance what the impact would be of removing a lane of Pandora and restricting right-on-red. The model most like predicted an increased delay of 'x' seconds on average, which was factored in to the cost / benefit analysis, which determined the benefits outweighed the costs.

 

Obviously you don't agree with the result, but to assume that no studies were done or consequences considered is frankly ridiculous.  


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#9431 On the Level

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:51 PM

We might not see impacts for a year or two due to Covid, but I have yet to hear anything logical about traffic modelling and the bike lanes from October through February.  People that were riding are going to be either driving or taking the bus.  We are reducing the ability to move people in and out of the city all while encouraging a population explosion in the Westshore.  It's lunacy.  



#9432 marks_28

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:12 PM

We might not see impacts for a year or two due to Covid, but I have yet to hear anything logical about traffic modelling and the bike lanes from October through February.  People that were riding are going to be either driving or taking the bus.  We are reducing the ability to move people in and out of the city all while encouraging a population explosion in the Westshore.  It's lunacy.  

 

Again, infrastructure is often built for peak travel periods. A lot of roads aren't used as often at night, do we shut them down? The highway to Mount Washington isn't used as often during the summer. Guess that was a poorly designed road. Is there evidence that traffic has been hampered solely because of the bike lanes, aside from an extra say 30 seconds a trip? A pretty reasonable sacrifice to bring more revenue to downtown stores, and safe access downtown for those not able to drive.


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#9433 Ismo07

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:12 PM

We might not see impacts for a year or two due to Covid, but I have yet to hear anything logical about traffic modelling and the bike lanes from October through February.  People that were riding are going to be either driving or taking the bus.  We are reducing the ability to move people in and out of the city all while encouraging a population explosion in the Westshore.  It's lunacy.  

 

How is moving people in and out of downtown reduced?  People do ride through the winter for the most part, the commuting numbers do not seem to change that much at least closer to town.  Yes some from the Westshore may drive rather than ride but that's been happening.  Not new.  Certainly more ride than ever before.  Would you like to reduce bike riding for 8 months of the year cause less ride for 4 months?  I'm having trouble with your argument.  You don't like how the lanes are set-up..  I get that.  Everything else I don't get though.  It is a build it and they will come process and that is happening..  


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#9434 Rex Waverly

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:16 PM

We might not see impacts for a year or two due to Covid, but I have yet to hear anything logical about traffic modelling and the bike lanes from October through February.  People that were riding are going to be either driving or taking the bus.  We are reducing the ability to move people in and out of the city all while encouraging a population explosion in the Westshore.  It's lunacy.  

 

I can't speak of how exactly the City did their modelling (or even if they did, but i'm giving the engineering staff the benefit of the doubt) but typically modelling is done using the peak season traffic volumes.  Yes, cycling is reduced during the  winter months, but the increase in cyclists driving is more than offset by the lack of tourist traffic, so summer traffic volumes are typically used since they are usually the largest volumes.



#9435 On the Level

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:31 PM

I do not believe that "people ride through winter for the most part" other than a very small minority of what is already a minority.  Capacity has been reduced as traffic is being congested, whether it be from no right turns on red or reduced lanes. 

 

I will stop as we obviously don't agree on the outcomes. It's a bit moot due to Covid and the decline of downtown anyways.



#9436 GetLisaSomeHelps

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:48 PM

I don't have data to back up this claim, but anecdotally, if there was a route to/from work where I had to share the road with a car for 0-10% of the trip, I would commute by bike/e-bike (I'd much rather work from home 100% of the time but I digress) and I'd imagine the same is for a lot of people who have considered the bike/not bike decision.

 

Currently, the best cycling route available is 6km, with 25% of the journey requiring street riding. This is down from nearly 70% as recently as a few years ago. I live in a strata that recently did a bike survey for future storage planning, of nearly 120 adult respondents, the majority said they would cycle to work if there was a route available that separated them from vehicles, but only 20 commuted via bike as of now.


Edited by GetLisaSomeHelps, 15 September 2020 - 01:49 PM.


#9437 Ismo07

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:50 PM

I do not believe that "people ride through winter for the most part" other than a very small minority of what is already a minority.  Capacity has been reduced as traffic is being congested, whether it be from no right turns on red or reduced lanes. 

 

I will stop as we obviously don't agree on the outcomes. It's a bit moot due to Covid and the decline of downtown anyways.

 

Except for snowy days I see bikes daily in the Pandora bike lane.  I am only on it for half a block (less than a minute) each way.  I can only tell you what I see.  



#9438 marks_28

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 01:54 PM

I do not believe that "people ride through winter for the most part" other than a very small minority of what is already a minority.  Capacity has been reduced as traffic is being congested, whether it be from no right turns on red or reduced lanes. 

 

I will stop as we obviously don't agree on the outcomes. It's a bit moot due to Covid and the decline of downtown anyways.

 

And at my work, there are bikes in the bike racks all year long. Sure, there are fewer, but maybe 50% will bike all year long.


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#9439 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 02:12 PM

And at my work, there are bikes in the bike racks all year long. 

 

maybe they leave them there for a few months over winter?



#9440 Brantastic

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 02:14 PM

The winters do generally have lower cyclist numbers than peak summer numbers (about 1/2 to 1/3 as much) but looking at the numbers from the Galloping Goose counter, the winters months have actually seen the largest % increases in ridership year over year for the last few years. 


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