177 replies to this topic

[UrbanRail]

So I guess the moral of the story is that both the private and public sectors cant survive without each other.

What I dont like is when people paint all public servants as lazy and sucking on excess pay. My Dad was a member of the HEU for many years working as a cook, and is probably the hardest working person I know. He and my brother now work in northern alberta in the camps. My girlfriend is a healthcare worker and is very hard working and rarely takes sick days.

I have never worked in the public sector, always in the private. I fortunately was paid sick days and I know many dont have that.

I dont know what the solution is. What I know for certain is that I will never see my pension plan when I hit 67.

[14 West]

Jobs are not built on money, they are built on resources (as is everything, either labour, intellectual or natural resources). There is an infinite amount of money that can exist only constrained by how much ink and paper (well I guess plastic now) that we choose to print. The value of money is also very arbitrary, if you are poor it is a dollar is worth a lot, if you are rich it is worth much less to you.

Back to the topic at hand:

Sick days don't really waste resources or cost anything to society, it's just a day without, like taking a pass. In fact they probably save resources in the form of contributing to better health for yourself and for others by not infecting everyone as well as giving time for recuperation so that the illness does to progress and require even more resources. Let's say the average Public Servant makes $200/day (worthwhile noting BCGEU workers only receive 75% pay on sick days), $150 of which they keep after income tax. How much do you think one trip to the doctor costs the system? Probably a lot more. Since there is a shared burden on society to provide things like healthcare in Canada, I would argue we can't afford NOT to have paid sick days.

[phx]

What I know for certain is that I will never see my pension plan when I hit 67.

Why do you think that?

[Doggier]

So I guess the moral of the story is that both the private and public sectors cant survive without each other.

Yes, that's it in a nut shell. You'll never get everyone to agree with you but the fact is that we need both to make our system work. If we try to marginalize one group or the other, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

[PulpVictor]

So I guess the moral of the story is that both the private and public sectors cant survive without each other.

What I dont like is when people paint all public servants as lazy and sucking on excess pay. My Dad was a member of the HEU for many years working as a cook, and is probably the hardest working person I know. He and my brother now work in northern alberta in the camps. My girlfriend is a healthcare worker and is very hard working and rarely takes sick days.

I have never worked in the public sector, always in the private. I fortunately was paid sick days and I know many dont have that.

I dont know what the solution is. What I know for certain is that I will never see my pension plan when I hit 67.

I have never thought, nor said that all public servants are lazy. There are so many dedicated, hard working people in the public service. I only take issue with waste.

I seriously doubt that very many people will see their pensions.

[LJ]

Back to the topic at hand:

Sick days don't really waste resources or cost anything to society, it's just a day without, like taking a pass. In fact they probably save resources in the form of contributing to better health for yourself and for others by not infecting everyone as well as giving time for recuperation so that the illness does to progress and require even more resources. Let's say the average Public Servant makes $200/day (worthwhile noting BCGEU workers only receive 75% pay on sick days), $150 of which they keep after income tax. How much do you think one trip to the doctor costs the system? Probably a lot more. Since there is a shared burden on society to provide things like healthcare in Canada, I would argue we can't afford NOT to have paid sick days.

Nobody here is arguing that if your sick, you should not take sick leave.

The argument is if you are not sick, you should be at work, not out (insert your favourite activity here)

There are some that are envious of others having sick leave benefits, but that is a different argument.

There are some that want to see statistical proof that civil servants, of any stripe, take more sick leave than others. I think there is enough anecdotal evidence from those on the forum with knowledge of it to make it pretty clear that this is the case. Also the Stats Can figures show the difference in numbers but no empirical evidence that civil servants misuse sick leave, but the only other explanation is that they get sick more often than private sector workers which defies belief IMO, given their working conditions vs some of those in the private sector.

Bottom line - if you are sick, stay home, if you are not, be at work.

[Sparky]

Thoughtful post LJ.

[VicHockeyFan]

I'm with LJ.

[UrbanRail]

Why do you think that?

After hearing what is happening around the world I am afraid it may not exist by the time I need it. Lets hope I am wrong.

[Doggier]

LJ, overall good post but your assumption (below) is flawed. There are other possible explanations. Most notably from this thread is the possibility that people without sick leave benefits may go to work more often when they are sick. Likely because they have no economic choice.

That said, there are good employees and bad employees just like there are good and bad employers, whether you are in the private or public sector. There will always be a lazy person somewhere who will take advantage of whatever is available.

Also the Stats Can figures show the difference in numbers but no empirical evidence that civil servants misuse sick leave, but the only other explanation is that they get sick more often than private sector workers...

[LJ]

LJ, overall good post but your assumption (below) is flawed. There are other possible explanations. Most notably from this thread is the possibility that people without sick leave benefits may go to work more often when they are sick. Likely because they have no economic choice.

That said, there are good employees and bad employees just like there are good and bad employers, whether you are in the private or public sector. There will always be a lazy person somewhere who will take advantage of whatever is available.

Well that is certainly possible, but I was thinking of private sector workers with similar benefits when I posted.

I like Sparkys approach with his employees, although when I mentioned that to my son, who gets neither sick leave or vacation time(he gets paid for it), he said that he would rather get paid for it and not take it. Sort of like a temptation to take it if it's there whereas if it is not, you don't think about it.

I think that will change as he gets older.

[phx]

After hearing what is happening around the world I am afraid it may not exist by the time I need it. Lets hope I am wrong.

You are thinking that by the time you retire, there will not be anyone left working in Canada?

The only notable challenge to the CPP is the transient surge of baby boomers. I'm not happy about the reduction in benefits I'll receive as a result, but I don't see the CPP ending.

[Candarius]

I seriously doubt that very many people will see their pensions.

I hope I do! I made the choice to accept a lesser pay now in order to have more time away from work now and a higher pension in the future (for the record I am an accountant by training and the pay is much higher in the private sector, along with much more hours worked, so I chose to work in the provincial government for less money than I could otherwise be making)

[Sparky]

I like Sparky's approach with his employees

LJ....Thank you for acknowledging our private sector approach to sick time.

It is way too easy for the average observer to think that private sector employers abuse their employees with regards to "sick time" and " use it or loose it time".

In addition to "sick time" ....our company also has a "loyalty" program (payable a week before Christmas) whereby we pay in excess of $1,600 to each employee who signs on for another year. (sort of a signing bonus) That's the deal. Everybody likes it.

Our company can not be successful without dedicated and helpful employees. Our employees appreciate the security associated with this approach.

This whole sick benefit thing....in fairness.....should be a relatively small part of the relationship between an employer and an employee.

We have work to perform......every day...... This does not come as a surprise to the men and women that I have the honour of working with.

[Bingo]

I hope I do! I made the choice to accept a lesser pay now in order to have more time away from work now and a higher pension in the future (for the record I am an accountant by training and the pay is much higher in the private sector, along with much more hours worked, so I chose to work in the provincial government for less money than I could otherwise be making)

Many employees in the provincial government accepted better medical coverage in lieu of higher pay. But those medical benefits were tampered with in 2002 by the BC government, affecting many retired employees now on pension.

A class action went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and then back to the Supreme Court of BC, but the original benefits have not been restored.

So yes, no pension is really secure, and the rules of the game can be changed after you have retired, when you no longer have any power to negotiate with the game changers.

[rjag]

http://news.national...ar-pbo-reveals/

The paper from the Parliamentary Budget Officer shows the average public servant costs taxpayers $114,100 a year in total compensation.

What’s more, the PBO says compensation in the federal service has outpaced inflation and that of other employees — both in business and other levels of government — during the past 13 years.

[PulpVictor]

The problem is the debt. The debt is owed to pension funds. If we cannot pay the debt, there are no pensions.

Thanks, jrag for the post. It is mind boggling that a conservative government has created more government. We must demand a balanced budget, no matter how it is done, from the Conservatives. We should start with MP pensions and 'sick' days.

[Langford Rat]

I am a manager in a medium-sized local (non-union) company (about 50 employees). We offer sick-days to our employees however they do not roll over year after year, nor are they paid out if unused. Everyone starts fresh at the beginning of the calendar year with eight days. The intent is to provide financial relief to employees who are too sick to come to work for a short term. This lessens the likelihood that they will come to work and spread the illness around because they cannot afford to not be paid. Many organizations in the private sector do not carry a lot of fat when it comes to staff. I can plan ahead and schedule around vacations and stats but when a worker is absent due to a short-term illness, the work that they are not performing that day needs to be performed by someone else. I pay a day’s wages to the sick employee and then pay a day’s wages to someone else for performing the work that they didn’t do. In many cases, I end up paying OT to have that work performed as it ends up being spread out amongst the rest of my crew who already have a full day’s work to perform. It’s a double hit and not all companies who can’t afford to do it are “cheap and nasty”.

[PulpVictor]

If the public service were as accountable to the taxpayer as you are to your company, we would not have a problem. Every report from the Auditor General, and the recent reports about the fighter jets prove this point.

Question is, how do we mandate our various (and many) governments to BE accountable?

[North Shore]

I think that it's called an election. Trouble is, only about 60% of us can be bothered to get off the couch and actually vote.