30 replies to this topic

[lumix]

In order to be accountable to the public the school districts produce financial statements available to the public. Below is Victoria's. It looks like there are some cushy jobs to be had outside of the teaching positions:

http://www.bced.gov....i/2012/SD61.pdf

Additionally, how would you feel about having your salary information available to the public?

[Lorenzo]

Wow! Teachers are doing way better than I thought.

[gkz]

Note that this is only for employees whose remuneration exceeds $75,000 - so any teachers making less than that (which are more than a few) will not be included.

[David Bratzer]

In order to be accountable to the public the school districts produce financial statements available to the public. Below is Victoria's. It looks like there are some cushy jobs to be had outside of the teaching positions:

http://www.bced.gov....i/2012/SD61.pdf

Additionally, how would you feel about having your salary information available to the public?

I don't have a problem with my salary being public... it's the taxpayers' money. If publishing my salary helps to inform public debate (in some small way) then I am all for it.

[mysage]

I don't have a problem with my salary being public... it's the taxpayers' money. If publishing my salary helps to inform public debate (in some small way) then I am all for it.

Exactly. For some reason people think that just becasue one is paid well then it must be a"cushy" job (as quoted above). In reality of course, in most cases the pay scalel reflects the hard work and the expertise/experience of the individual. Just as it should do!

[MarkoJ]

Exactly. For some reason people think that just becasue one is paid well then it must be a"cushy" job (as quoted above). In reality of course, in most cases the pay scalel reflects the hard work and the expertise/experience of the individual. Just as it should do!

In my humble opinion, not always the case when you are talking unions. I was a HSA union worker for 4 years at VIHA and hard work and expertise was not reflected in the pay scale as far as I can remember. Drove me absolutely nuts so I quit and ended up self-employed

Edit* At the same time I would like to add that I think a strong middle class and unions are one of the things that make Canada such a great country, just not for me.

[sebberry]

I've had some of the teachers on that list and I'm glad to see some of them have moved up to Principal positions. Others definitely deserve the wages they receive. I'm not sure however that their pay should be on par with other public employees such as police officers.

I think published wages is par for the course if you're a public employee. I'll be honest, I've snooped the BC Public Sector Salary database for people I know and frankly I'm shocked at some of the wages. IMO, many are too high while others are too low.

[14 West]

What strikes me is how teachers have been able to leverage their position to make significantly more than other unionized workers with similar education. A teacher with a Masters level biology or teaching degree is making at least $10,000 and up to $25,000 more than a comparable biologist within a Government Ministry (who unlike the teacher receives no added incentives for holding a MSc or PhD) and the teacher also gets more time off (this information is public so anyone could find it with their due diligence). If you exclude overtime, you'd also find that a Teacher is better compensated than a Nurse by a similar margin as well. Compensation for management is more closely aligned as far as I can tell. I should note that I don't disagree with high salaries because none of these people are getting rich and all that money finds it's way back into the economy anyways providing other jobs - but I feel like there should be more equality. Just because the regular public service can't hold people hostage the same way Teachers can is no excuse for a large gap in compensation.

Disclaimer - I understand not all Districts pay the same, so these comparisons may not always be valid.

On another note, as a public servant myself, I have no issue with salaries being published. If this bothered you, you'd have a tough time in public service because everyone's salaries are available to you via organization charts and pay grids.

[sebberry]

I don't have an issue with good teachers being well paid, but I do have an issue with crap teachers receiving the same compensation.

I've had teachers who should have been fired, and teachers who deserved every penny they made. Why they both receive comparable salaries I have no idea.

[pherthyl]

What strikes me is how teachers have been able to leverage their position to make significantly more than other unionized workers with similar education. A teacher with a Masters level biology or teaching degree is making at least $10,000 and up to $25,000 more than a comparable biologist within a Government Ministry (who unlike the teacher receives no added incentives for holding a MSc or PhD) and the teacher also gets more time off (this information is public so anyone could find it with their due diligence). If you exclude overtime, you'd also find that a Teacher is better compensated than a Nurse by a similar margin as well. Compensation for management is more closely aligned as far as I can tell. I should note that I don't disagree with high salaries because none of these people are getting rich and all that money finds it's way back into the economy anyways providing other jobs - but I feel like there should be more equality. Just because the regular public service can't hold people hostage the same way Teachers can is no excuse for a large gap in compensation.

Problem is that if there was equality that would mean all the other public servants moving up to match the teachers. No way in hell would the teachers ever take a pay cut to be more equal.

As for publishing pay info, fine with me.

[14 West]

I don't have an issue with good teachers being well paid, but I do have an issue with crap teachers receiving the same compensation.

I've had teachers who should have been fired, and teachers who deserved every penny they made. Why they both receive comparable salaries I have no idea.

Because it never actually works out this way and either system has it's flaws. With a Union agreement it is not performance based so yes bad makes the same as good. But most are probably decent to good, so it is fairly representative. In the other system Good Teacher A happens to not get along with Administrator X who is setting his Pay because the Good Teacher A is too ambitious and threatens Administrator X's dated skills and style and therefore Teacher A gets fired or makes less then they should. Bad Teacher B is however old chaps with Administrator X, doesn't rock the boat, and therefore gets paid well even though he has no idea how to use a computer and uses the same overhead sheets from 1975. Of course there would be hundreds of iterations of this where people would be either fairly or unfairly compensated based on the perceptions and relationships with management, but the point is that in the end you probably end up with roughly the same relative fairness when compared to the blanket Grid system the union currently employs.

[spanky123]

^ What seems to work well in some systems is pay for performance. In that model each teacher gets a base salary and then through some objective measure (student or PTA survey, attendance, volunteer / coaching effort, etc), they can make an additional amount of money.

[G-Man]

^ Are you kidding? What it creates is incentive to cheat the system. Making teachers mark higher while the kids get a false sense of success.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Are you kidding? What it creates is incentive to cheat the system. Making teachers mark higher while the kids get a false sense of success.

I don't think it would work that way. If there was student testing, it would be independent, not graded by the teacher whose salary is under review.

But I'm not sure what merit system would work.

[spanky123]

^ Are you kidding? What it creates is incentive to cheat the system. Making teachers mark higher while the kids get a false sense of success.

I was suggesting student / PTA evaluations of the teachers, not testing of the students.

[http]

[ snip ] If you exclude overtime, you'd also find that a Teacher is better compensated [ snip ]

Excluding overtime seems an unrealistic proposition when dealing with teachers in BC.

[North Shore]

I was suggesting student / PTA evaluations of the teachers, not testing of the students.

Not sure about that...my Grade 8/9 English teacher was (!at the time!) a first-class pr!ck. Minus one mark for every spelling mistake on an essay, and pretty much one or two essays a week. I hated him, and dreaded his class. I'm sure that I told my parents so at the time. Now, 30-odd years later, we're reasonably good friends, and I'm profoundly grateful for his efforts in teaching me how to write clearly, spell correctly, and proofread my work.
I can't speak for my classmates, but had we had any input on the teacher's salary, I'm sure that it wouldn't have been positive.
Asking for student/PTA feedback is just asking for a popularity contest style of teaching...

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Man
^ Are you kidding? What it creates is incentive to cheat the system. Making teachers mark higher while the kids get a false sense of success.
I don't think it would work that way. If there was student testing, it would be independent, not graded by the teacher whose salary is under review.

IIRC, there was a chapter in 'Freakonomics' about this - suggesting that teachers do, indeed, try to game the system...

[tedward]

A teacher with a Masters level biology or teaching degree is making at least $10,000 and up to $25,000 more than a comparable biologist within a Government Ministry

Perhaps the difference is that a teacher's job can be more stressful and requires skills and knowledge beyond simply their subject area? How many government biologists supervise large numbers of children on a daily basis?

[14 West]

Perhaps the difference is that a teacher's job can be more stressful and requires skills and knowledge beyond simply their subject area? How many government biologists supervise large numbers of children on a daily basis?

Maybe, but I'd say it is a pretty even compromise. A Biology teacher has a set curriculum (and high school biology is) at a lower level than what a Government researcher deals with also the teacher has very few changes to the curriculum from year to year. So essentially on any specific day but in a different year they are doing exactly the same thing but with different kids. However they have to supervise kids which obviously could be a pain. Six of one half dozen the other imho, the pay scales should not be so far apart.

Now consider that I said Teacher (that list does not distinguish K-12), not high school teacher and the argument is a bit different. Elementary teachers still need roughly the same education as a high school teacher, but obviously Grade K-7 is pretty basic, so you are more of an educated babysitter/motivator (I don't want to discount how difficult, challenging and frustrating that might be, but just to illustrate the difference) then a science-biology professional who needs to keep current on the latest methods in research and technology. Again, six of one, half dozen the other. There should be more equality.

[David Bratzer]

Now consider that I said Teacher (that list does not distinguish K-12), not high school teacher and the argument is a bit different. Elementary teachers still need roughly the same education as a high school teacher, but obviously Grade K-7 is pretty basic, so you are more of an educated babysitter/motivator (I don't want to discount how difficult, challenging and frustrating that might be, but just to illustrate the difference) then a science-biology professional who needs to keep current on the latest methods in research and technology. Again, six of one, half dozen the other. There should be more equality.

I think K-7 teachers are a lot more than babysitters. Grade One, for example, is one of the most critical years in a child's life. It is the year they learn to read. The responsibility held by a Grade One teacher is pretty significant. Also, there has been a lot of new research in recent years about early childhood education, literacy skills, etc. I don't think it is accurate to suggest that elementary teachers do not need to do professional development or study the latest research in their field.