234 replies to this topic

[Sparky]

I am just wondering if Scianew Band will do anything about the toxic fill that was dumped on their land. How close is it to the new proposed building?http://www.kidsinvic...6302&view=print

Welcome to the forum AbbyGrad.

You are asking about something that started 6 or 7 years ago. Perhaps you should talk to the band.

[darlenet8]

Hey Darlenet8

Thank you for looking into the toxic soil. I know Russ Chipps will say it has all been cleaned up. But I still can not believe that. As no one ever says were that soil ended up. Also i would have those crabs tested. Seems there has been a lot more cancer around Spirit Bay since 2007.

Tony

Tony - The contaminated soils were illegally dumped by an unrelated firm warranting the soil was within acceptable commercial levels. These soils were removed several years ago. The site has been completely cleaned and all agencies satisfied. The runoff has been tested for several years and there are no residual problems. There is a final report available through the Provincial government.
It is very hard to respond to any anecdotal evidence about cancer ... no others I contacted within the Band believed there were any more or less over the past several years...

[darlenet8]

Darlenet8
You claim Scianew are living in former trailers?

If I am horrificly distorted. Then why when I went thru the camp site on Sept 30th. I pulled in on the second enterance, not the main one. Right away I notice signs. Lucys place. At old Bobs place. I stopped and asked her. She said she been relocated to his place. She lives next door in BOB OLD PLACE, to the couple who bought a place for 80 grand, back in May. Lucy lived in a cabin in campground. Which had a lot of skids, brokin glass laying around the road. She used the skids for the wood, to heat her cabin. Why I have asked her. She said cause the band would not cut her cords to use. At one time, I thought she was in the skid business, As there was so many.

Darlenet8
None of them are habitable and all are in the process of coming down

Does that include the couple who spent 80 grand on there place in May?

Darlenet8
I take exception to your claim that the Scianew helped hardship cases so they could take over the homes for themselves. What nonsense.

Heard BOB got help from the band. Moved to Abbortsford. Lucy has signs she lives there now. Maybe BOB just gave her the place. Who really know for sure. He was very old. Plus so many rumors around alot of it.

Darlenet8
And did campers help each other? I'm sure they did. But the Band hired housing professionals (Linda Ross & Associates) who identified the 12 hardship cases and relocated them. Yes...it was the Band who ensured appropriate housing for people with limited options. I don't care what you've heard - I worked through this with the Band and the housing professionals.


Yes some of the bands I heard were great, Is Carver Jim still screaming. Also the campers helped as much as the band.


Darlenet8
Bringing in rich oil money? Tony - you have no idea what you're talking about.

Read the Spirit Bay FB. Oil Barons welcome. Which will change it for the local fishermen.

Darlenet8
THe natives should have built themselves and not sold out to a developer? Again - it is clear you have no idea. The Scianew have sold NOTHING. They are 51% partners in the development of Spirit Bay.

49 per cent is a lot. Owning 100 per cent there self. Is the way to go and grow. Selling out, yes , many who lived at Cheanuh were long standing friends, some even went to school with each other. Friends from youth days. Even at events, a female band speaker, would be the MC. State that Cheanuh was a community, friends, who stick together. Why I believe, a lot of ones who lived at Cheanuh were so upset. Hearing from band, about friends , community, ect. When eviction happened, they knew it was all lies. Selling out is not all ways about money.

Darlenet8
Education? Just white faces? Yes - education underway and yes, Farmer is working with the STEP program and you apparently are not familiar with a whole bunch of very skilled and committed members of Scianew - it is clear you just don't know.

There is skilled natives. Also there is non skilled youth. Why I asked this question. As having a new town. Building education for future should be in the blue prints.

Darlenet8
I invite you to come out to Scianew and meet me. We can walk the property - look at the campgrounds, talk to the Band members...your view is so horrific-ly distorted. I am going away for a week but invite you to meet me on-site on October 15th - 3pm or suggest an alternative.

I can walk the property at anytime. Talk to others not selling Spirit Bay. As there is more the just your side and Russ Chipps side. Why i luv a forum then your Spirit Bay FB. Here you can not control. By deleting everything you do not like reading. Mainly from the ex campers aka Cheanuh Community.

Good Luck to yous as the developers. I do hope one day. The natives do take control 100 per cent of there own lives. Not just 51 per cent.

Thank you for this forum.

Tony

Tony - I am also thankful for this forum as well and I do not delete comments on the facebook page unless people use foul language or are racist in their comments. I often purchase ads on facebook on which there will be comments but when the ad ends, the posts are gone - I just want to be clear that I don't delete anything unless it is racist or uses foul language. I have had comments back from campers appreciating that even dissenting comments are left for others. And I want to apologize for being 'short' with you in previous posts - I am welcoming of exchanges and every once in awhile I get frustrated. I will be more courteous.
I am a big fan of debate and the exchange of information and will pursue inquiries as presented. I am a fan of the Scianew and their commitment to the future and particularly to the education of their youth. At a recent Longhouse meeting held with School District 62, the strength of the partnership between the Band and the School District was evident and the beneficiaries are the children.
I am sure I don't know everyone's story at Scianew and I'm sure there are some people who wish that things had not changed - there always are. And there will likely be issues arise and we just have to do our best to handle them and it won't always be to everyone's satisfaction but I do believe that the unprecedented partnership between Scianew and the developer will lead to good things and the road to get there will not always be smooth.

[James Bay walker]

hi, DarleneT8,

A reasonably complete preliminary prospectus, even an unofficial one so far as the Province is concerned, will be forthcoming shortly, right? Or is that far (years, decades) down the road?

My main concern (other than of course, the offering price schedule being of competitive interest) is: How will the completed and sold projects' ongoing management over the coming decades be handled?

Will there eventually be strata (well, strata leasehold) leasehold ownership councils that are elected by the leasehold owners to run each of the building sites or if they desire, choose their own property management firm to run things?

jbw

[darlenet8]

hi, DarleneT8,

A reasonably complete preliminary prospectus, even an unofficial one so far as the Province is concerned, will be forthcoming shortly, right? Or is that far (years, decades) down the road?

My main concern (other than of course, the offering price schedule being of competitive interest) is: How will the completed and sold projects' ongoing management over the coming decades be handled?

Will there eventually be strata (well, strata leasehold) leasehold ownership councils that are elected by the leasehold owners to run each of the building sites or if they desire, choose their own property management firm to run things?

jbw

JBW - we won't be filing a typical Disclosure Statement as the Superintendent has no jurisdiction and has advised that even if we did submit one, they would return it to us. But yes, we are preparing an Information Statement that will be similar to a Disclosure Statement and one that individuals can take to their lawyers for review.
The development will have a Home Owners Corporation who will, collectively, manage the development as in a strata. You are correct in that areas/neighbourhoods/phases will have individual strata's who can make their own decisions about retaining services.

[James Bay walker]

Thanks for the prompt response.

earlier I'd remarked

I'm wondering though, precisely where would any disputes be aired and who would decide them? (At least with lawsuits with developers, which are a tough enough nut to crack and not for the timid, the answers are well established.)

While waiting for a response, I'll add to that now:

Would the 'New Home Warranty' program apply?

jbw

[darlenet8]

Thanks for the prompt response.

earlier I'd remarked
While waiting for a response, I'll add to that now:

Would the 'New Home Warranty' program apply?

jbw

jbw - what kind of disputes are you referring to? Legal disputes between buyers and the developers?

[James Bay walker]

jbw - what kind of disputes are you referring to? Legal disputes between buyers and the developers?

No one ever wants to go to the Supreme Court to settle matters, but it's useful to know in advance just what the alternatives might be. I'd thought more in terms of home warranty issues along with the overall design concept being followed through, but since the answers are slow in coming some reading brings up a different concern in the meantime that seems timely to broach now: the impact of cultural differences in governance on land value.

eg., the Musquean Indian Band vs Glass (2000 SSC 52); I believe that led to: land value should be reduced by 50% when compared to off reserve land (a ruling upheld in the Supreme Court, I believe). As, cannot the Band Council levee Property Taxes and pass bylaws such as zoning bylaws which greatly reduces the value of designated lands (vs off reserve lands)?

http://scc.lexum.org...m/1816/index.do

Which, in Western non-Indian culture comes down to the equivalent of what I think in this context would be the stakeholders' (purchasers') reasonable expectation of being on the 'board of directors' (the Band Council). Since the Band Council's governing style and decisions may greatly impact their post-purchase enjoyment and ongoing costs of 99-year ownership homes:

Will purchasers have proportionate representation of their own on the Band Council during the 99-year lease period? And, out of more than mere curiousity, how large is the present Band Membership?

jbw

[darlenet8]

jbw - when you are looking to draw from other First Nations issues around the Province there are some important, distinguishing factors to note:
The Scianew, owners of lands where Spirit Bay will be developed, govern under the Land Code vs the Indian Act. This provides them much greater control over the land.
This lease is a 99 year pre-paid lease - there will be nothing to re-negotiate until the end of the term.
The Head Lease agreement grants control to the Development Managers who then, through the sub-lease, grant control, as homes are purchased, to the homeowners. If you are familiar with Westbank First Nation in Kelowna, it operates in a similar fashion.
There are just over 200 members of the Scianew First Nation, not all of whom live on reserve.

[James Bay walker]

Darlenet8, I think it important that despite the proximity and appearance of westernness, would be buyers and investors would be prudent to recognize that the business setting represents an entirely different Nation (definitely not Canada as non-natives know it) and this is happening on that Nation's turf (think: dealing with and living in Cuba or Pakistan societies about their property, but transplanted to within a couple of hours' drive from Victoria; a not too farfetched analogy to help clear one's perception of the implications might be to see this as 'embassy owned land').

and, (discussion about the Land Code) "Under the Indian Act, First Nations have to get approval to re-zone or designate land, for example, and that takes far too long, Duncan said. Under the agreement, the participating communities can act on their own without having to get the minister's approval.."

"He acknowledged that the fact that Attawapiskat is proceeding with its court case despite the removal of the third party manager, indicates his assessment of events isn't shared by all parties."

http://media.knet.ca/node/21890

The 'Land Code' gives Natives greater flexibility and speed to run the show than the Indian Act (correct?).

Greater speed, greater flexibility (marvellous for developers who are partners) but less oversight by the Feds on just how the Band Council runs the show. Hence, I see an even greater need for proportional representation by the purchasers on the Band Council (but, that's just me, perhaps there will be enough interest from others that this perceived 'need' of mine can be sidestepped).

It will be interesting to see how the 'Land Code' concept as used in practice by assorted First Nations shakes out in practice over the next few decades. Will it ever overcome the stigma (50% discounting of land value)? Will it introduce unforeseen problems for partners of First Nations? We've had the 1876 Indian Act for some time. The 'Land Code' concept is very new (I'd not heard of it before just now) though has been available for over a decade, yet is still being gradually phased in (have the majority of Canada's Native bands adopted it, yet? any idea as to what proportion of them have adopted it?).

For a Nation whose origin has been around for millenia (50,000 thousand years? perhaps so under some migration theories), a generation or two might be seen as less than an eyeblink for them to adapt and make the best of this new direction.

jbw

ps. Further reading to my earlier example (an indication of the direction being taken): http://www.musqueam.bc.ca/lands. On your side, are there any links that describe the governance of the First Nation involved here in any detail?

[Pioneer]

This is my first post. I really enjoy reading all the interesting things going on in our beautiful area. Usually I just read but I am perplexed and felt I must ask a question or two.
I must ad that I have lived in Metchosin for almost 80 years, my children played with Patti Humphreys (Russ Chipp's mother) and went to school with the Chipp's and Charles back in the 70's and 80's

darlenet8 wrote a comment in her posts about the contaminated soil being cleaned up but I can't find it in her posts, luckily I saved her post to show other people
darlent8 wrote and I quote:The contaminated soils were illegally dumped by an unrelated firm warranting the soil was within acceptable commercial levels. These soils were removed several years ago. The site has been completely cleaned and all agencies satisfied. The runoff has been tested for several years and there are no residual problems. There is a final report available through the Provincial government.

Hey Darlenet8

Thank you for looking into the toxic soil. I know Russ Chipps will say it has all been cleaned up. But I still can not believe that. As no one ever says were that soil ended up. Also i would have those crabs tested. Seems there has been a lot more cancer around Spirit Bay since 2007.

Tony

I do believe Mike Chipps (Russ's brother) was involved with the soil dump.
Many agree with Tony, nobody I've talked to in Metchosin has heard it was removed or knows any trucker that was hired to help remove the soil.
We all know truckers who were hired to take it there.
Where did they take it? Vancouver? and why was the Provincial Government involved when it is Federal Land? puzzling unless it was a joint project?
Nobody believes the soil was removed. The land sits as it has for the last 10 years or so, without any disturbance. Many of us pass that way every couple of weeks.

Please post the link to the final report.
I am hoping we are all misinformed. Maybe Metchosin City Hall will have the report?
But since you already have the info? could you please post the file # or link?

I truly do wish all the best for the entire Band and hopefully the past problems will remain in the past and their future will be bright and successful.

[Sparky]

Welcome to vibrantvictoria Pioneer.

[larrobb]

here's the story from the TC in November 2007, outlining what toxins were in the soil, the Chipps involvement and the reaction of Metchosin council. very interesting: http://www.canada.co...bf0b10d&k=63278

[concorde]

Does the reserve get drinking water from wells or domestic piped water from the Sooke reservoir? If its from a well you can bet all the water on the reserve is also contaminated now

[Mike K.]

Is it possible that barges were used to remove the soil and the only heavy machinery on site were excavators and loaders? That would certainly address the issue of residents not seeing any trucks or not knowing anyone who was hired to haul.

And here's an odd tale. Apparently back in the 1930's a ship had been burned and metal scrapped at low tide on the shores of Beecher Bay by none other than the founder of Capital Iron. More.

[James Bay walker]

That certainly sounds possible given the location and if enough funds were available to do so. Barging might even be cheaper than trucking.

jbw

[Mike K.]

Yeah, you know to pull off a major trucking operation you need to have quite a number of trucks constantly moving back and forth. That can get very expensive very quickly.

If the soil was barged to the mainland the extra distance from Sooke to wherever wouldn't have been objectionably high, I don't think.

[concorde]

The costs to barge out that soil would be much more than trucking it out. The shore is far too rocky and even if it was barged it would have to then reloaded onto dump trucks to dispose at a licensed facility.

There is no doubt in my mind the contaminated soil is still there. It makes sense now why Ralmax started a new company to limit its liability

[Mike K.]

But if the soil was intended to be barged to the mainland, as Pioneer surmised, then wouldn't it be more economical to load it with a conveyor onto barges? If it's being shipped somewhere it might as well be shipped from the source unless doing so would present a significantly higher cost than trucking.

Of course the latter is a moot point if the soil is still in fact there. And what's this about Ralmax starting a new company?

Jogging my memory I seem to recall a dump truck with a trailer displaying an advertisement for some development out at Shawnigan Lake. It made rounds for quite a while between the west shore and the Shawnigan Lake area. Now that I think about it whenever I saw it I wondered why and from where it was trucking dirt up the Malahat.

[concorde]

But if the soil was intended to be barged to the mainland, as Pioneer surmised, then wouldn't it be more economical to load it with a conveyor onto barges? If it's being shipped somewhere it might as well be shipped from the source unless doing so would present a significantly higher cost than trucking.

Of course the latter is a moot point if the soil is still in fact there. And what's this about Ralmax starting a new company?

Jogging my memory I seem to recall a dump truck with a trailer displaying an advertisement for some development out at Shawnigan Lake. It made rounds for quite a while between the west shore and the Shawnigan Lake area. Now that I think about it whenever I saw it I wondered why and from where it was trucking dirt up the Malahat.

There is no need to transport the soil to the mainland, there are several disposal sites in and around the CRD. You would have to get the barges close to shore even if you loaded via conveyors which would beat the barge to hell with the surf and up and down of the tides

Ralmax is now Ralmax Contracting Ltd. instead of Ralmax Developments Ltd. now

The trucks with the signs on them are SIA (South Island Aggregates). The have a gravel pit near the South Shawnigan turn off and they also haul soil from town back and dump it there